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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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Apollos
 
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 12:36pm
Originally From Apollos:
Moses wasn’t telling nice people to stand up for their rights and demand recompense for being harmed; He was telling evil people that they could not demand more than equal recompense for being wronged.
 
From Semar:
Why should Moses told the evil people, they didn't believe him anyway. They would not do whatever he said.

 

From Apollos:
I was simplifying the description here so let me restate this with different terms.
 
Moses wasn’t telling nice people to stand up for their rights and demand recompense for being harmed; He was telling anicent Middle Eastern people that believed in two eyes for one eye, two tooths for one tooth, etc. - that they could not demand more than equal recompense for being wronged.
 
Your other comments don't make sense to me.
 
Apollos
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Servetus
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 4:41pm

Hi Ron,

 

You wrote:  “Okay, I'll bite: what's up your sleeve?”

 

Not yet mate, it’s waaaaaaay too important to be revealed so quickly.  But seriously, I first want to see if anyone from especially the Christian tradition can play lawgiver and devise a means, or statement, by which the above-cited laws as given by Moses and by Jesus can be reconciled and harmonized.  How might one simultaneously observe Moses’ and Jesus’ law, or edicts, without contradiction?    

 

You wrote:  “Personally, when I was a Christian I pretty much ignored the Old Testament, because it was just too much at odds with Jesus's message.”

 

I can relate.  My arguably Christian name is Servetus, which is bad enough in some circles, but I am also sometimes surnamed Marcion.  (One can remain a Christian, as in my case, and have highly disparate, or let’s say, independent viewpoints and, for the fun of it, name oneself after heretics and heresiarchs.)  Remain fiercely independent then, as you are, but please do consider coming back into the fold.  You are missed.   

 

Hi Apollos

 

You wrote:  “I will answer your [Servetus’s] question but I gather from your and other Muslim posts that you do not have an answer for my question. That is, you simply want to continue asserting that Islam is correct without accepting the burden of proof that is yours.”

 

That, I must say, is a lot of gathering from my question.  I have not asserted that Islam is correct and neither for that matter have I continued to do so.  I just thought, after reading your opening argument, that we could break it down and discuss, or digest, it in increments.

 

You wrote:  “The Jews - like you - objected to such audacious statements …”

 

Now hold on.  I don’t mind being placed in such illustrious company as, say, Caiaphas, but please do reconsider your assumption that I have thus far voiced any objections.  I have not.  I have presented two statements, one by Moses and another by Jesus, which seem contradictory at best.  I would like to know how to reconcile the two, how to observe both of them without contradiction.  Do you see any way of doing so?

 

You wrote:  “To summarize, if you had considered the underlying intent of God’s commands and knew a little about Middle Eastern culture, you would have realized that the commandment Moses gave in Leviticus was in keeping with loving thy neighbor ...”

 

If you don’t stop being so condescending, I am not going to attend your catechism, or Sunday School, and you will no doubt miss me and my fascinating, endlessly thought-provoking contributions to your thread.

 

Best regards,

 

Serv

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Apollos
 
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 5:04pm

Servetus,

 

I apologize for assuming you were agreeing with Muslim claims in your objections. I don't have a Sunday School class but I see how my comments would appear condescending with this wrong assumption.

 

So, to provide me a better understanding of what your questions are about – will you please reveal your opinion on my claim that Jesus rose from the dead and the burden of proof we expect from people claiming to be from God?

 

Apollos

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semar
 
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Quote semar Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by Servetus

If you don’t stop being so condescending, I am not going to attend your catechism, or Sunday School

Tongue
 
Salam/Peace,
Semar
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"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 6:51pm
Apollo,
with all respect why would I trust you when you use a source that is not trustful and say of God things that are distasteful and contradictory to the nature of the Devine, One God, the foundation of anyone's belief. What else would one expect of the rest?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Servetus
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 12 March 2009 at 4:19pm

Apollos,

 

You wrote:  “I apologize …”

 

Thanks.  It was just a stutter step.  I am having some fun with you.

 

You wrote:  “So, to provide me a better understanding of what your questions are about …”

 

I will, at your request, address the remainder of this sentence, but my question, thus far, seems very simple.  Let me rephrase my question –restate the problem- by using the so-called triad, i.e., the thesis, antithesis and synthesis.

 

“Source Wikipedia:

 

The thesis is an intellectual proposition.

The antithesis is simply the negation of the thesis, a reaction to the proposition.

The synthesis solves the conflict between the thesis and antithesis by reconciling their common truths, and forming a new proposition.”

 

Thesis (Moses)

“If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth.”

 

Antithesis (Jesus)

“You have heard that it was said [by Moses], 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

 

Synthesis

?

 

Can you or anyone (especially among Christians) write a statement, or law, which solves the apparent conflict between Moses and Jesus and reconciles their common truths, thus forming a new proposition?  In other words, can anyone here create, or write, a synthesis?           

 

You wrote:  “– will you [Servetus] please reveal your opinion on my claim that Jesus rose from the dead and the burden of proof we expect from people claiming to be from God?”

 

I will try.  But, with your permission, I will have to do it later, because I usually restrict myself to a half hour or less on these boards (which is one reason why I like to take things in smaller doses.)

 

Best regards,

 

Serv

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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 12 March 2009 at 4:27pm

The Law was a concession from GOD for the sins of man.

Galatians 3
 19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
 
Galatians 3

 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Jesus abolished some:
 
Matthew 5
 
 38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
 
broke some:
 
Mark 2

 23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"

 25He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."

 27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

and repelled some:

Matthew 5

 31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
 
How was Jesus allowed to do this:
 
Matthew 28

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 12 March 2009 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by Servetus

Can you or anyone (especially among Christians) write a statement, or law, which solves the apparent conflict between Moses and Jesus and reconciles their common truths, thus forming a new proposition? 
Hmmm.
 
Well, I suppose one could argue that Moses did not mean that the victim should retaliate in kind, but that society (i.e., the law) should retaliate on his behalf.  In other words, if someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also -- then call the police and they will punish the aggressor as Moses prescribes.
 
Actually, the idea has some merit.  At the risk of resurrecting a rather touchy subject, it ties in nicely with my thoughts on the Israel-Palestine thing.  Regardless of who you see as the victim and who is the aggressor, it is not helpful for the victim to retaliate, because it only perpetuates the violence; but appeal to the world community with clean hands and a bloody face, and it will be clear to all who the aggressor is, and what needs to be done.


Edited by Ron Webb - 12 March 2009 at 5:27pm
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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