IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Burden of Proof

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honeto

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Posted: 20 May 2009 at 5:35pm

Originally posted by Apollos

Originally posted by honeto

The source my friend the source. In my study the source is not very trustworthy. It's contradictory statements about so many issues and principles determine that there is more than one mind behind it, not just the All Knoweing God, otherwise it would agree within itself, right?

Many things it says that are negated in the same source. So it becomes a credibility issue. When you find a person to be unreliable, you become unsure of all that that person says!

Even why was Jesus being killed by his enemies is not clear in the Bible, as there are at least three different reasons given at three locations not far from each other, as we have seen in the quotes.

Hasan

Hasan - You are trying to change the subject. The historical facts listed above are not "Christian facts". They are the consensus of historians - most who are skeptics and non-Christians. They rely heavily on secular and anti-Jewish sources instead of the NT. So it appears you do not accept facts unless they agree with you?

Apollos

My dear,

I am talking of the Bible, some are using other than Bible to prove about the Bible events but I am talking about facts of the Bible.

Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Andalus

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Posted: 20 May 2009 at 8:56pm

Originally posted by Apollos

Andalus -

I should have mentioned that I find your criticisms of Paul quite odd considering the unsubstantiated authority of Mohammed. We know Paul's real name, his education, his life, etc. We have writings directly from his hand and we have contemporary endorsements of him by Peter and Luke. We don't have any such thing concerning Mohammed but you want to accept him as a prophet of God and question Paul's authority.

Apollos

I seem to have hit a nerve, you cannot seem to stop writing and repeating yourself. I will respond in time to your points.

Your faith in Paul is misguided and based upon ignorance. Pauline Christianity, which you follow, was the interpretation chosen by the "proto-orthodox", from whom you inherited your ideas. You have no clue about Pauls education, only his claims, and most of the books you claim are from him are proven to be forgeries. I will cover all of this and we will see why your faith is a "hollowed inheritance".

For now, be calm and patient, your reply will suffice and requires no more repeates.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

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Andalus

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Posted: 20 May 2009 at 9:10pm

Originally posted by Apollos

Andalus,

Since you seem to think you understand the Jewish perspective on being good all by oneself,

No, I only understood that you were ignorant about the nature of the mitzva with respect to humand nature and the teaching your faith puts forth (Pauline Christianity). I put forth a point that was problematic with your initial contribution.

Please do not make this my problem, switch and bait is not nice.

I suggest you read the recent article by a recognized and orthodox Jewish group. I quote the title and an excerpt below:

“Why do we need Moshiach; can’t we do it alone?”

“Only Moshiach can bring about the (permanent) change, because Moshiach will transform human nature, and that alone will eliminate warfare and disputes, dog-eat-dog competition.”

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/227,2099378/Why-do-we-need-Moshiach-can-t-we-do-it-alone.html

Apollos

I only have a few questions.

What the hell does this have to do with anything?

I am not sure what tangent you are off on????

What does it prove and how does this help you?

If Jesus is the Moshiach, then show me the premenant change? The church answer to this question is actually lame, they tell us it is all spirtual. Convenient.

I also find it curious that the Christian bible translates Moshiach as it should be, the "annointed one", in every place in the bible accept for the book of Daniel. This is a rhetorical trick for the flock, you know that right? I mean, if you went back in time to the temple and asked who is the moshiach, your reply would undoutedly be "which one?". I digress. Again, your reply is coming. Keep in mind I have a full life and respond as time avails.

Hope this helps.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

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Apollos

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Posted: 21 May 2009 at 2:11pm

Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by Apollos

Andalus,

Since you seem to think you understand the Jewish perspective on being good all by oneself,

Please do not make this my problem, switch and bait is not nice.

I suggest you read the recent article by a recognized and orthodox Jewish group. I quote the title and an excerpt below:

“Why do we need Moshiach; can’t we do it alone?”

“Only Moshiach can bring about the (permanent) change, because Moshiach will transform human nature, and that alone will eliminate warfare and disputes, dog-eat-dog competition.”

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/227,2099378/Why-do-we-need-Moshiach-can-t-we-do-it-alone.html

Apollos

I only have a few questions.

What the hell does this have to do with anything? I am not sure what tangent you are off on????

What does it prove and how does this help you?

From Apollos:

The relevance is simple and obvious. You have previously argued that the average Jewish thought that keeping Torah is humanly possible. (I quote you below). Regardless of what Christians think on the matter, I point you here to current Jewish thought that proclaims that even the basics of Torah can’t done on our own – let alone the full 613 commandments. You obviously have a bigger argument with modern days Jews about Deuteronomy 30 than you do me.

Apollos

Quotes from Andalus:

“In Deuteronomy 30, we find something regarding “average Jewish thought”.

“So here we have Moses, not anyone else, saying with God’s authority, that the law can be kept and performed. That it is not too hard or “far off”, and no one can intermediate for them to help them with the law.”

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Apollos

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Posted: 21 May 2009 at 2:50pm

Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by Apollos

Andalus -

Apollos

I seem to have hit a nerve, you cannot seem to stop writing and repeating yourself. I will respond in time to your points.

For now, be calm and patient, your reply will suffice and requires no more repeates.

From Apollos:

You haven’t hit a nerve. I simply realize how hypocritical you are in so much of what you say. I don't need to read more of your theories on Paul or your veneration of Bart Erhman. (What makes you think Jews or Christians care what apostates like him think?) My point here was clear and simple: You have zero proof that Mohammed is from God yet you act as though Paul or Peter or Luke don't have enough proof that they had authority from Jesus. If you were consistent, you should require the same proof for them as you do Mohammed.

Since you have asserted more falsehoods in the above response, I am responding to them here rather than wait for you to elaborate. (I have a full life too). First of all - I don't need Paul to believe what I believe. Show me where Jesus and Paul disagree and I will admit otherwise. Secondly, Paul did not write “books” but letters. Please provide proof that even one is a forgery or admit that you are wrong in calling his "books" forgeries.

Apollos

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Andalus

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Posted: 22 May 2009 at 11:18pm

Originally posted by Apollos

Andalus,

Since you seem to think you understand the Jewish perspective on being good all by oneself,

Please do not make this my problem, bait and switch is not nice.

Originally posted by apollo

Originally posted by andalus

Originally posted by apollos

I suggest you read the recent article by a recognized and orthodox Jewish group. I quote the title and an excerpt below:

“Why do we need Moshiach; can’t we do it alone?”

“Only Moshiach can bring about the (permanent) change, because Moshiach will transform human nature, and that alone will eliminate warfare and disputes, dog-eat-dog competition.”

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/227,2099378/Why-do-we-need-Moshiach-can-t-we-do-it-alone.html

Apollos

I only have a few questions.

What the hell does this have to do with anything? I am not sure what tangent you are off on????

What does it prove and how does this help you?

From Apollos:

The relevance is simple and obvious. You have previously argued that the average Jewish thought that keeping Torah is humanly possible. (I quote you below).

Apollo, I have come to the conclusion that you are just another cheap missionary engaging in the worst of sophistry.

I quoted YOUR book stamped by approval from your triune God. It says following the law is humanly possible, I did not say it. YOUR book says it.

And your link does not make a bit of difference.

Originally posted by apollo

Regardless of what Christians think on the matter, I point you here to current Jewish thought that proclaims that even the basics of Torah can’t done on our own – let alone the full 613 commandments. You obviously have a bigger argument with modern days Jews about Deuteronomy 30 than you do me.

Apollos

Lets look at the link you "dumped" and, as normal, you assert and leave out any "proof".

Everyone knows that Moshiach will make the world safe and peaceful. But do we need moshiach for that? Can't humanity solve its own problems? Many speak of improvement, mankind gradually getting better and better until they reach what they call the messianic era, a time of universal tranquility, without that individual human being called moshiach. What's wrong with that?

Science learns from its mistakes and doesn't repeat them -- knowledge is cumulative. A sophomore physics student knows more physics than Isaac Newton. How does that kid do it? We see further because we stand on the shoulders of giants.

But while this holds true in medicine and chemistry, in astronomy, and in almost every sphere of knowledge -- human beings haven't changed one iota since Cain killed his brother Abel. The crimes of antiquity are the crimes of the morning newspaper. Because human nature hasn't changed, it doesn't change. Every baby starts at square one, no matter how brilliant and wonderful the parents are.

As long as human beings are what they are, there will be quarrels among neighbor, and wars among nations

As long as human beings are what they are, there will be quarrels among neighbor, and wars among nations. Every one of us has a struggle inside whether to be generous our not, to be honest or deceitful, to be considerate of selfish.

(To be sure, we can, we must, and we do (to some extent), change ourselves. But Moshiach will change the need to change. Now life is a constant struggle between good and evil, right and wrong; when Moshiach comes good will be a given).

Only Moshiach can bring about the (permanent) change, because Moshiach will transform human nature, and that alone will eliminate warfare and disputes, dog-eat-dog competition.

Man's destiny -- Torah teaches us -- is not to be doomed to facing an endless stream of Hitlers in every generation. There is a limit, a limit in time. Our generation, which has experience the most cruel, will experience the most wonderful - a change in human nature.

Where in this paste that you linked to does it say that man cannot follow the law? I will tell you: No where. It is a "non sequitur". You are doing what all Pauline Christians do, you just assert and superimpose your beliefs where you see fit regardless of what a verse might say. The link does not prove or even remotely imply what you believe.

Quotes from Andalus:

“In Deuteronomy 30, we find something regarding “average Jewish thought”.

What is it with missionaries? I quote your bible. You quote a website (which does not even implicitly prove what you are asserting).

Edited by Andalus - 23 May 2009 at 8:33am

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

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Andalus

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Posted: 22 May 2009 at 11:38pm

Originally posted by Apollos

Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by Apollos

Andalus -

Apollos

I seem to have hit a nerve, you cannot seem to stop writing and repeating yourself. I will respond in time to your points.

For now, be calm and patient, your reply will suffice and requires no more repeates.

From Apollos:

Well we at this forum do not need any more of your baseless assertions and aburd claims that you simply "handwave" like a mad magician without any real arguments, while demanding that everyone else do your homework. LOL......what Jews and Christians think? You are either very naive or very "ignorant". Erhman states what Jews already believe about your faith and the NT. So in a way you are right, Jews do not care. Dr Erhman is a well known scholar, I can see why you hate him.

My point here was clear and simple: You have zero proof that Mohammed is from God yet you act as though Paul or Peter or Luke don't have enough proof that they had authority from Jesus. If you were consistent, you should require the same proof for them as you do Mohammed.

I have not made any claims on my faith yet, we are still working on your poorly written contribution stuffed full of asserted claims and assumptions and vague statements you feel we should just accept. Instead of trying to distract the thread with your blithering and obfuscating (silly links that are irrelevant), i could finsih and play your game of me having to "show you" why one can reject your faith on rational grounds and why your burden of proof "claim" is juvenile and misses the mark completely.

You want to jump ship now that someone is calling you out on your claims.

Since you have asserted more falsehoods in the above response, I am responding to them here rather than wait for you to elaborate. (I have a full life too).

You have not shown any falsehood, you are engaing in bad sophistry and simple "blithering".

First of all - I don't need Paul to believe what I believe. Show me where Jesus and Paul disagree and I will admit otherwise.

You say you do not want to see my reply but now you ask for it. Make up your mind. Of course you need Paul, it is his interpretation that you follow. Do not be obtuse.

Secondly, Paul did not write “books” but letters. Please provide proof that even one is a forgery or admit that you are wrong in calling his "books" forgeries.

Apollos

LOL........there goes your nerves. Perhaps your comprehension skills are in question. Stop this blithering and I can finish.

Do no be affraid, be affirmed.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

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Apollos

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Posted: 24 May 2009 at 10:02am

Andalus – I did not say the Jewish belief described above is my belief. I said that this article refutes your earlier claim that you correctly described what the “average Jew believes” about Deuteronomy 30 and the general concept of keeping the Law.

I will connect the dots for you:

I think you know that part of the Law is to be honest, generous, not selfish, not quarrelsome, etc. The article quoted – from average Jews – says these very things are not being accomplished by the world at large and they won’t be until the Messiah comes and changes our nature. If these average Jews believed as you say they do, they would not say that we can only change ourselves “to some extent”; they would not say that we all need a change in our human nature. They should have said – if they believed as you claim they do – “everyone simply needs to follow the Law as we Jews do – at least in the areas of honesty, generosity, selflessness, etc.” That was the point of my copying their link which I happened upon. I was not searching for proof of what the average Jew believes on this and if you think the article says something different, so be it.

I will now let you have the last word as I can see there is no way you actually want to really discuss anything. You parse my comments into fragments so you can create endless tangent on tangent arguments. You refuse to answer any questions I pose to you and you are determined to change the subject to something that has nothing to do with the original topic. These banters maybe fun for you but they are a waste of time for me and anyone reading them.

Apollos

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