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Interfaith Dialogue
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believer
 
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2009 at 7:25am

Nur that is what the Bible claims.

No the burden of proof of what Islam claims:
 
the Quran is the Word of GOD
that Mohammad is a messanger of GOD
 
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2009 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by believer

Nur that is what the Bible claims.

No the burden of proof of what Islam claims:
 
the Quran is the Word of GOD
that Mohammad is a messanger of GOD
 


 Yes Muhammad is a Prophet of God and he is mentioned in your Bible.

 Former Roman Catholic Bishop of the Uniate Chaldean describes how Prophet Muhammad has been mentioned in Bible.
http://bible.islamicweb.com/

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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2009 at 3:47pm
Hi Apollos,
 
You wrote:  "So - when Jesus presumes to tell people what Moses really meant, we should listen ..."

Let’s analyze the first assertion of this momentarily truncated sentence, that we should listen to Jesus tell people what Moses really meant.  Here, then, is a single case in point:

Moses:              “If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth.” (Lev 24:19)

Jesus:               “You have heard that it was said [by Moses], 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matt 5:38)

How can one, without contradiction, simultaneously observe, or obey, the law of Moses and the law of Jesus?  Can these two statements be reconciled?   If so, how?

Serv



Edited by Servetus - 10 March 2009 at 3:50pm
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2009 at 4:33pm
Good question, Servetus, but how do you reconcile the two statements?  Islam recognizes both Moses and Jesus as prophets, doesn't it?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Servetus Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2009 at 4:45pm

Welcome back, Ron!

 

I, on my own, have never been able to reconcile the two commandments (but do have something good-naturedly up my sleeve).  I have always considered this a prime example of the contradiction between the so-called Old and New Testaments, between Moses and Jesus, reported statements from the latter that he had not come to change but to “fulfill” the law notwithstanding.

 

Yes, as I understand, Islam recognizes both Moses and Jesus as prophets.

 

Serv

 

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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2009 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by Servetus

Welcome back, Ron!
Smile I just stopped in to see what's going on.  Probably won't stay long, still pretty busy with work and things.

 

I, on my own, have never been able to reconcile the two commandments (but do have something good-naturedly up my sleeve).

Okay, I'll bite: what's up your sleeve?
 
I have always considered this a prime example of the contradiction between the so-called Old and New Testaments, between Moses and Jesus, reported statements from the latter that he had not come to change but to “fulfill” the law notwithstanding.
What Jesus actually said was: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)
 
I have highlighted the two key phrases which make it clear (to me, anyway) that Jesus fulfilled the law, after which the law (or various laws) could and indeed did pass away.  Personally, when I was a Christian I pretty much ignored the Old Testament, because it was just too much at odds with Jesus's message.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 7:57am
Originally posted by Servetus

Hi Apollos,
 
You wrote:  "So - when Jesus presumes to tell people what Moses really meant, we should listen ..."

Let’s analyze the first assertion of this momentarily truncated sentence, that we should listen to Jesus tell people what Moses really meant.  Here, then, is a single case in point:

Moses:              “If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth.” (Lev 24:19)

Jesus:               “You have heard that it was said [by Moses], 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matt 5:38)

How can one, without contradiction, simultaneously observe, or obey, the law of Moses and the law of Jesus?  Can these two statements be reconciled?   If so, how?

Serv

 

Servetus,

 

I will answer your question but I gather from your and other Muslim posts that you do not have an answer for my question. That is, you simply want to continue asserting that Islam is correct without accepting the burden of proof that is yours.

 

The example you gave is one of many that I alluded to. When Jesus says something that is different or seems different from previous commandments, we give Him the benefit of the doubt because of His credentials. And what do we find when we study His words? We find that He admitted His teachings were a “New Covenant” a “New Commandment” yet one that fulfilled the Law rather than abrogating it. Instead of relaxing the law He reinforced the underlying intent – being perfect as God is. A few of His statements on this are below.

 

Mat 5:17  Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Mat 5:18  For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled.

Mat 5:19  Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 5:20  For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 5:21  You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not kill" --and, "Whoever shall kill shall be liable to the judgment."

Mat 5:22  But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the sanhedrin; but whoever shall say, Fool! shall be liable to be thrown into the fire of hell.

Mat 5:27  You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not commit adultery."

Mat 5:28  But I say to you that whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Mat 5:29  And if your right eye offends you, pluck it out and throw it from you. For it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be thrown into hell.

Mat 5:30  And if your right hand offends you, cut it off and throw it from you. For it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be thrown into hell.

Mat 5:31  It was also said, Whoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce.

Mat 5:32  But I say to you that whoever shall put away his wife, except for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery. And whoever shall marry her who is put away commits adultery.

Mat 5:33  Again, you have heard that it has been said to the ancients, "You shall not swear falsely, but you shall perform your oaths to the Lord."

Mat 5:34  But I say to you, Do not swear at all! Not by Heaven, because it is God's throne;

Mat 5:35  not by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet; not by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King;

Mat 5:36  nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.

Mat 5:37  But let your word be, Yes, yes; No, no. For whatever is more than these comes from evil.

Mat 5:38  You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."

Mat 5:39  But I say to you, Do not resist evil. But whoever shall strike you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Mat 5:40  And to him desiring to sue you, and to take away your tunic, let him have your coat also.

Mat 5:41  And whoever shall compel you to go a mile, go with him two.

Mat 5:42  Give to him who asks of you, and you shall not turn away from him who would borrow from you.

Mat 5:43  You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."

Mat 5:44  But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you,

Mat 5:45  so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 5:46  For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same?

Mat 5:47  And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax-collectors do so?

Mat 5:48  Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

 

The Jews - like you - objected to such audacious statements even when it was evident that Moses had sometimes announced God’s permissive will rather than God’s perfect will. They should have gotten this but they had forgotten that all of the Law and the Prophets hang on the fundamental commandment to love God and love our neighbor.

 

Mat 22:35  Then one of them, a lawyer, asked, tempting Him and saying,

Mat 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?

Mat 22:37  Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.

Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39  And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

 

If they had considered this they wouldn’t have had the following exchange:

 

Mat 19:3  And the Pharisees came to Him, tempting Him and saying to Him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

Mat 19:4  And He answered and said to them, Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female",

Mat 19:5  and said, For this cause a man shall leave father and mother and shall cling to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh?

Mat 19:6  Therefore they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.

Mat 19:7  They said to Him, Why did Moses then command to give a bill of divorce and to put her away?

Mat 19:8  He said to them, Because of your hard-heartedness Moses allowed you to put away your wives; but from the beginning it was not so.

Mat 19:9  And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is put away commits adultery.

 

To summarize, if you had considered the underlying intent of God’s commands and knew a little about Middle Eastern culture, you would have realized that the commandment Moses gave in Leviticus was in keeping with loving thy neighbor. He did not utter this commandment in the context of a loving kind culture but one that expected an escalation of controversy and violence whenever someone was wronged. Moses wasn’t telling nice people to stand up for their rights and demand recompense for being harmed; He was telling evil people that they could not demand more than equal recompense for being wronged. It was this commandment that Jesus took to the next level when He said we should love those that do us wrong.

 

 

There is another important implication to your question. You know doubt think that puzzling statements by Jesus proves the New Testament or the Old Testament were originally different – where there would be no difference between the two. But if this was so, there is no reason Jesus should have come at all. There would be no reason for the Jews to reject His teachings, no reason for Him to have been condemned or crucified. Instead of Jesus creating the greatest change in how the Bible and Judaism were understood, we wouldn’t even know about Him. The fact that Jesus was a problem and a big one demonstrates that He was a controversial person. Instead of you being surprised that He said new and controversial things, you should expect that and try to understand what He meant and why He said these things.

 

Apollos

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Quote semar Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by Apollos

Moses wasn’t telling nice people to stand up for their rights and demand recompense for being harmed; He was telling evil people that they could not demand more than equal recompense for being wronged.
  Why should Moses told the evil people, they didn't believe him anyway. They would not do whatever he said.

 

Originally posted by Apollos

There is another important implication to your question. You know doubt think that puzzling statements by Jesus proves the New Testament or the Old Testament were originally different – where there would be no difference between the two. But if this was so, there is no reason Jesus should have come at all. 

If so, it's no use to have old testament. So we can just abandon it, or assume there is none.
 
Originally posted by Apollos

The fact that Jesus was a problem and a big one demonstrates that He was a controversial person.
So he was like our leaving president, na'uzubillah mindzalik


Edited by semar - 11 March 2009 at 12:23pm
Salam/Peace,
Semar
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"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"
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