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Mansoor_ali
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2009 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Apollos

Mansoor Ali,

 

I mentioned earlier that I am not intimidated by Liberal “scholars” who claim such nonsense about the Bible. Did you notice that in the article you copied from, there is not one fact – only theories. When they say that Luke differs from Mark so that obviously means one of them was editing the other's work, that is their theory. When they say that John included more developed theology than could have existed in the first century, that is their theory. And these theories imenate from the premise that supernatural things don’t happen. According to them, Jesus couldn’t have made a prophecy that cam true because such things don’t happen. John couldn’t have wrote what is ascribed to him because it would require a supernatural revelation from God, etc.

 

The problem is with all this nonsense is – it is not supported by the facts. In fact most of these theories keep changing because the cold facts prove them wrong. These Liberals used to say it took 300 years to develop the New Testament because it was so developed, sophisticated, etc. Then manuscripts were found long before this. They s*****p for a little while and then said it took 200 years – like the article you found. Unfortunately we keep finding manuscripts and other ancient finds that push this back closer and closer to the first century. For example we have portions of John’s gospel dated within 10 years of John’s death. Oh Oh, that invalidates one of those theories doesn’t it?

 
These guys aren’t starting with history and evidence – they are starting with their Liberal bias against Jesus being from God. Will you accept their opinion on that? If not, please don’t be appeal to people who claim to be “Christians” and “scholars” but are neither. (Its like me quoting Bahai’s to criticize the Quran).

 

Apollos



 To Apollos

 Topic: 15 Clear Chronological Contradiction In The Bible?

1:  In Matthew 4:5-8 the Devil took Jesus to the pinnacle and then to the mountain, while in Luke 4:5-9 he took him to the mountain and then the pinnacle.

2:  In Matt. 21:12-19 Jesus cleansed the temple and later cursed the fig tree, while in Mark 11:13-15 he cursed the fig tree and later cleansed the temple.

3:  In Matt. 8:28-32 Jesus caused devils to enter swine and later called Levi (Matt. 9:9), while in Luke 5:27-28 Jesus called Levi and later caused devils to enter swine (Luke 8:26-33).

4:  In Mark 1:12-13 Jesus was tempted in the wilderness and later John was arrested (Mark 6:17-18), while in Luke 3:19-20 John was arrested and later Jesus was tempted in the wilderness (Luke 4:1-13).

5:  In Mark 2:13-17 Matthew was called by Jesus and later the tempest was calmed (Mark 4:35-40), while in Matt. 8:18, 23-27 the tempest was calmed and later Matthew was called (Matt. 9:9-17).

6:  In Matt. 8:1-4 Jesus cleansed the leper and later healed Peter's mother-in-law (Matt. 8:14-15), while in Mark 1:29-31 Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and later cleansed the leper (Mark 1:40-44).

7:  In Matt. 8:28-32 Jesus caused devils to enter swine and later appointed the 12 apostles (Matt. 10:1-4), while in Mark 3:13-19 Jesus appointed the 12 apostles and later caused the devils to enter the swine (Mark 5:1-13).

8:  In Luke 3:19-20 John the Baptist was arrested and later Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law (Luke 4:38-39), while in Mark 1:29-31 Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and later John was arrested (Mark 6:17-18).

9:  In Luke 3:19-20 John was arrested and later the storm was calmed (Luke 8:22-25), while in Mark 4:35-40 the storm was calmed and later John the Baptist was arrested (Mark 6:17-18).

10:  In Luke 5:27-32 Levi (Matthew) was called and later the storm was calmed (Luke 8:22-25), while in Matt. 8:18-27 the storm was calmed and later Levi was called (Matt. 9:9-17).

11:  In Matt. 8:14-15 Jesus cured Simon's mother-in-law and later John the Baptist was arrested (Matt. 14:3-5), while in Luke 3:19-20 John was arrested and later Jesus cured Simon's mother-in-law (Luke 4:38-39).

12: In Matthew 21:1-11 Jesus entered Jerusalem and later purified the Temple (Matthew 21:12-16), while in John 2:13-25 and 3:1-12 he purified the Temple and later entered Jerusalem (John 12:12-16).

13:  In Matt. 8:28-32 Jesus caused devils to enter swine and later paid tribute to John the Baptist (Matt. 11:11-14), while in Luke 7:24-28 Jesus paid tribute to John the Baptist and later caused devils to enter swine (Luke 8:26-33).

14:  In Luke 22:14-21 Jesus said after supper that the hand of his betrayer was with him on the table, while in Matt. 26:21 and Mark l4:18 Jesus made this statement during supper.

15:  And lastly, in Matt. 8:23-27 Jesus calmed the storm and later appointed the 12 apostles (Matt. 10:1-4), while in Mark 3:13-19 Jesus appointed the 12 apostles and later calmed the storm (Mark 4:35-41).

 The common defense that these events occurred more than once is without merit since many of them are unique. Therefor the bible is not gods word, since gods word has to be perfect and cannot contain many chronological contradictions, since only one chronological order can be right, the other has to be wrong.



 
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2009 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Originally posted by Apollos

Mansoor Ali,

 

I mentioned earlier that I am not intimidated by Liberal “scholars” who claim such nonsense about the Bible. Did you notice that in the article you copied from, there is not one fact – only theories. When they say that Luke differs from Mark so that obviously means one of them was editing the other's work, that is their theory. When they say that John included more developed theology than could have existed in the first century, that is their theory. And these theories imenate from the premise that supernatural things don’t happen. According to them, Jesus couldn’t have made a prophecy that cam true because such things don’t happen. John couldn’t have wrote what is ascribed to him because it would require a supernatural revelation from God, etc.

 

The problem is with all this nonsense is – it is not supported by the facts. In fact most of these theories keep changing because the cold facts prove them wrong. These Liberals used to say it took 300 years to develop the New Testament because it was so developed, sophisticated, etc. Then manuscripts were found long before this. They s*****p for a little while and then said it took 200 years – like the article you found. Unfortunately we keep finding manuscripts and other ancient finds that push this back closer and closer to the first century. For example we have portions of John’s gospel dated within 10 years of John’s death. Oh Oh, that invalidates one of those theories doesn’t it?

 
These guys aren’t starting with history and evidence – they are starting with their Liberal bias against Jesus being from God. Will you accept their opinion on that? If not, please don’t be appeal to people who claim to be “Christians” and “scholars” but are neither. (Its like me quoting Bahai’s to criticize the Quran).

 

Apollos



 To Apollos

 Topic: 15 Clear Chronological Contradiction In The Bible?

1:  In Matthew 4:5-8 the Devil took Jesus to the pinnacle and then to the mountain, while in Luke 4:5-9 he took him to the mountain and then the pinnacle.

2:  In Matt. 21:12-19 Jesus cleansed the temple and later cursed the fig tree, while in Mark 11:13-15 he cursed the fig tree and later cleansed the temple.

3:  In Matt. 8:28-32 Jesus caused devils to enter swine and later called Levi (Matt. 9:9), while in Luke 5:27-28 Jesus called Levi and later caused devils to enter swine (Luke 8:26-33).

4:  In Mark 1:12-13 Jesus was tempted in the wilderness and later John was arrested (Mark 6:17-18), while in Luke 3:19-20 John was arrested and later Jesus was tempted in the wilderness (Luke 4:1-13).

5:  In Mark 2:13-17 Matthew was called by Jesus and later the tempest was calmed (Mark 4:35-40), while in Matt. 8:18, 23-27 the tempest was calmed and later Matthew was called (Matt. 9:9-17).

6:  In Matt. 8:1-4 Jesus cleansed the leper and later healed Peter's mother-in-law (Matt. 8:14-15), while in Mark 1:29-31 Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and later cleansed the leper (Mark 1:40-44).

7:  In Matt. 8:28-32 Jesus caused devils to enter swine and later appointed the 12 apostles (Matt. 10:1-4), while in Mark 3:13-19 Jesus appointed the 12 apostles and later caused the devils to enter the swine (Mark 5:1-13).

8:  In Luke 3:19-20 John the Baptist was arrested and later Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law (Luke 4:38-39), while in Mark 1:29-31 Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and later John was arrested (Mark 6:17-18).

9:  In Luke 3:19-20 John was arrested and later the storm was calmed (Luke 8:22-25), while in Mark 4:35-40 the storm was calmed and later John the Baptist was arrested (Mark 6:17-18).

10:  In Luke 5:27-32 Levi (Matthew) was called and later the storm was calmed (Luke 8:22-25), while in Matt. 8:18-27 the storm was calmed and later Levi was called (Matt. 9:9-17).

11:  In Matt. 8:14-15 Jesus cured Simon's mother-in-law and later John the Baptist was arrested (Matt. 14:3-5), while in Luke 3:19-20 John was arrested and later Jesus cured Simon's mother-in-law (Luke 4:38-39).

12: In Matthew 21:1-11 Jesus entered Jerusalem and later purified the Temple (Matthew 21:12-16), while in John 2:13-25 and 3:1-12 he purified the Temple and later entered Jerusalem (John 12:12-16).

13:  In Matt. 8:28-32 Jesus caused devils to enter swine and later paid tribute to John the Baptist (Matt. 11:11-14), while in Luke 7:24-28 Jesus paid tribute to John the Baptist and later caused devils to enter swine (Luke 8:26-33).

14:  In Luke 22:14-21 Jesus said after supper that the hand of his betrayer was with him on the table, while in Matt. 26:21 and Mark l4:18 Jesus made this statement during supper.

15:  And lastly, in Matt. 8:23-27 Jesus calmed the storm and later appointed the 12 apostles (Matt. 10:1-4), while in Mark 3:13-19 Jesus appointed the 12 apostles and later calmed the storm (Mark 4:35-41).

 The common defense that these events occurred more than once is without merit since many of them are unique. Therefor the bible is not gods word, since gods word has to be perfect and cannot contain many chronological contradictions, since only one chronological order can be right, the other has to be wrong.

 

Mansoor Ali,

 

No the common explanation is not that these things happened more than once - though some other passages like parables Jesus gave should be seen in this way. The problems in the above is that someone is not paying attention to how each writer does or doesn't attempt to be chronological in their account. They didn't have parentheses in ancient Greek but it is apparent that many statements should be seen as parenthetic statements. I will identify one for simplicity.

 

In Matthew we see how the writer addresses specific events in topical form not strictly chronological. First he addresses events at the temple.

 

Mat 21:10  And when He had come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

Mat 21:11  And the crowd said, This is Jesus the prophet, from Nazareth of Galilee.

Mat 21:12  And Jesus went into the temple of God

 

The below is a condensed version of the two days and times Jesus entered the Temple

 

and cast out all those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and the seats of those who sold doves.

Mat 21:13  And He said to them, It is written, "My house shall be called the house of prayer"; but you have made it a den of thieves.

Mat 21:14  And the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.

Mat 21:15  And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things which He did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David, they were angry.

Mat 21:16  And they said to Him, Do you hear what these say? And Jesus said to them, Yes, have you never read, "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings You have perfected praise?"

Mat 21:17  And leaving them, He went out of the city to Bethany, and spent the night there.

Mat 21:18  And returning early to the city, He hungered.

 

The section below is a parenthetic statement that condenses Jesus’ actions with the fig tree.

 

Mat 21:19  And seeing a fig tree in the way, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only. And He said to it, let no fruit grow on you forever. And immediately the fig tree withered away.

Mat 21:20  And when the disciples saw, they marveled, saying, How quickly the fig tree has withered away!

Mat 21:21  Jesus answered and said to them, Truly I say to you, If you have faith and do not doubt, you shall not only do this miracle of the fig tree, but also; if you shall say to this mountain, Be moved and be thrown into the sea; it shall be done.

Mat 21:22  And all things, whatever you shall ask in prayer, believing, you shall receive.

 

Back to the events at the temple

Mat 21:23  And when He had come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him as He was teaching, and said, By what authority do you do these things? And who gave you this authority?

Mat 21:24  And Jesus answered and said to them, I will also ask you one thing; which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

 

 

Mark writes more chronological in his account of the parallel events Matthew addresses.

 

Mar 11:11  And Jesus entered into Jerusalem and into the temple. And when He had looked around on all things, the hour already being late, He went out to Bethany with the Twelve.

Mar 11:12  And on the next day, they going out of Bethany, He was hungry.

Mar 11:13  And seeing a fig-tree with leaves afar off, He went to it, if perhaps He might find anything on it. And when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season of figs.

Mar 11:14  And Jesus answered and said to it, No one shall eat fruit of you forever. And His disciples heard.

Mar 11:15  And they came to Jerusalem. And entering into the temple, Jesus began to cast out those who bought and sold in the temple. And He overthrew the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold doves.

Mar 11:16  And He would not allow any to carry a vessel through the temple.

Mar 11:17  And He taught, saying to them, Is it not written, "My house shall be called the house of prayer for all nations?" But you have made it a den of thieves.

Mar 11:18  And the scribes and the chief priests heard. And they sought how they might destroy Him. For they feared Him, because all the people were astonished at His doctrine.

Mar 11:19  And when evening came, He went out of the city.

Mar 11:20  And passing on early, they saw the fig-tree dried up from the roots.

Mar 11:21  And Peter, remembering, said to Him, Rabbi, behold, the fig tree which You cursed has withered away.

Mar 11:22  And answering Jesus said to them, Have faith of God.

Mar 11:23  For truly I say to you that whoever shall say to this mountain, Be moved and be cast into the sea, and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that what he said shall occur, he shall have whatever he said.

Mar 11:24  Therefore I say to you, All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you shall receive them, and it will be to you.

 

If one gives the benefit of the doubt to the writers you will see that this harmony is not only possible, it is quite likely. It avoids the unreasonable claim that “when the writers agree , it must be collusion. When the writers differ it must mean contradictions.”

 

Apollos

 
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 8:17am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

 

It is such a pity that Christians have to struggle with their religion and their so called holy scripture. If the God that the Christians worship is most powerful most perfect, they would not have much to do in order to defend their faith. And the original Bible would still be around.
 
No one asks for Muslims to defend their claims?! Please!
 
Apollos
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 10:56am
 

The below is a condensed version of the two days and times Jesus entered the Temple

 

and cast out all those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and the seats of those who sold doves.

Mat 21:13  And He said to them, It is written, "My house shall be called the house of prayer"; but you have made it a den of thieves.

Mat 21:14  And the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.

Mat 21:15  And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things which He did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David, they were angry.

Mat 21:16  And they said to Him, Do you hear what these say? And Jesus said to them, Yes, have you never read, "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings You have perfected praise?"

Mat 21:17  And leaving them, He went out of the city to Bethany, and spent the night there.

Mat 21:18  And returning early to the city, He hungered.

 

The section below is a parenthetic statement that condenses Jesus’ actions with the fig tree.

 

Mat 21:19  And seeing a fig tree in the way, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only. And He said to it, let no fruit grow on you forever. And immediately the fig tree withered away.

Mat 21:20  And when the disciples saw, they marveled, saying, How quickly the fig tree has withered away!

Mat 21:21  Jesus answered and said to them, Truly I say to you, If you have faith and do not doubt, you shall not only do this miracle of the fig tree, but also; if you shall say to this mountain, Be moved and be thrown into the sea; it shall be done.

Mat 21:22  And all things, whatever you shall ask in prayer, believing, you shall receive.

 

How do YOU know it is a condensed version? Is that stated within the text itself, or is that the only way to reconcile the two differing versions?
 
You shouldn't have to jump through hoops and come up with explanations as to why the Bible can be the uncorrupted Word of God. It should be fairly starightforward and ummmmmmmm uncorrupted.
 
"These Liberals used to say it took 300 years to develop the New Testament because it was so developed, sophisticated, etc."
 
Apparently it is not so developed and sophisticated because you are using it's very unsophistication as an excuse for the contradictions:  "The problems in the above is that someone is not paying attention to how each writer does or doesn't attempt to be chronological in their account. They didn't have parentheses in ancient Greek but it is apparent that many statements should be seen as parenthetic statements."
 
Once again, apparent to whom?
 

"If one gives the benefit of the doubt to the writers you will see that this harmony is not only possible, it is quite likely. It avoids the unreasonable claim that “when the writers agree , it must be collusion. When the writers differ it must mean contradictions.”

 

If the Bible is the Word of God, is He the writer to whom we should give the benefit of the doubt?
 
 
 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 11 March 2009 at 11:00am
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 11:06am
"The Bible we have today is the Bible that was available to Mohammad."
 
I have already posted earlier how this is not necessarily the truth as many versions of the Bible exist. Which version is the "true" version?
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 11:51am

It is quite telling that the only responses from Muslims to this topic has been to reaffirm their claim that Bible is corrupted or to say my first two points aren’t really true. No one has responded with an explanation that accounts for the various attributes I describe in point 3. No one has refuted that these attributes exist and no one has any explanation for how and when these things could have been manufactured. I therefore conclude that my summation is true:

 

The type of Bible corruption Muslims describe requires a reversal of the attributes of God and the attributes of men. With all of its supernatural attributes, the Bible is supposed to be something men created while a book with no supernatural attributes is supposed to be God’s Word.

 

Apollos

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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 11:56am
Originally posted by Apollos

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

 

It is such a pity that Christians have to struggle with their religion and their so called holy scripture. If the God that the Christians worship is most powerful most perfect, they would not have much to do in order to defend their faith. And the original Bible would still be around.
 
No one asks for Muslims to defend their claims?! Please!
 
Apollos
 
That there is only one true God and we should all submit to His Will? No, not too much.
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Apollos

It is quite telling that the only responses from Muslims to this topic has been to reaffirm their claim that Bible is corrupted or to say my first two points aren’t really true. No one has responded with an explanation that accounts for the various attributes I describe in point 3. No one has refuted that these attributes exist and no one has any explanation for how and when these things could have been manufactured. I therefore conclude that my summation is true:

 

The type of Bible corruption Muslims describe requires a reversal of the attributes of God and the attributes of men. With all of its supernatural attributes, the Bible is supposed to be something men created while a book with no supernatural attributes is supposed to be God’s Word.

 

Apollos

 
Because this is a false statement.  Christians are in fact the ones who have reversed the attributes of God and man, making the man Jesus into a God, and making the One and Only God into part of a triune equal with a man.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 11 March 2009 at 2:59pm
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