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believer
 
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 01 March 2009 at 12:17pm
Chyralis -Now that is definately a problem for catholics!!
 
More clarification:
 
The Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy the Quran validates these.
 
The Gospel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that we have today is the Gospel that was used by the earliest Christians as early or even earlier then 67AD and was available to Mohammad and validated by the Quran.
 
There is no mention of the Epistles in the Quran.  Through the epistles we know that the Gospel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was in use by that 67AD date.   St. Paul referenced them in his letters- Epistles and we know that Paul died in 67AD.
 
The New Testament combines the Gospel and Epistles into the New Testament.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 01 March 2009 at 12:20pm

The Quran never mentions that the Gospel and Torah have been lost or corrupted.

And if it did then what is to say that the Quran has been protected from coruption and loss?  It makes no sense!!  LOL!!
 

If you look at the literal- the Book could actually be the Bible in this verse.  It is not separating out the Gospeel and Torah as in other verses.  The Bible was in existance as we have it much earlier then Mohammad.

Literal:
And this the Koran was/is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than God, and but confirmation (of) what (is) between his (Prophet Mohammad's) hands, and detailing/explaining The Book , no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) from the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.
 
YUSUFALI: This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.
PICKTHAL: And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be invented in despite of Allah; but it is a confirmation of that which was before it and an exposition of that which is decreed for mankind - Therein is no doubt - from the Lord of the Worlds.
SHAKIR: And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds.


Edited by believer - 01 March 2009 at 12:27pm
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 02 March 2009 at 5:03am
As Salamu Alaikum Brothers and Sisters.I see we are at it again Apollos.We Muslims believe in The Books of Allah.Believer, if what you said in your first statement is true then why is it a reason for the Holy Qur'an in the first place?You failed to prove your point but I will (Ameen) your quotes from The Qur'an.The Holy Qur'an is Allahs last Book for us all re-affirming His first Revelations La illaha illallah .The Bible even speaks of the coming of Prophet Muhammed.Like Sister Nur says the topic should be change.

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 02 March 2009 at 5:10am
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 02 March 2009 at 5:43am
And if it did then what is to say that the Quran has been protected from coruption and loss?  It makes no sense!!  LOL!!
 
Maybe it doesnt make sense to you because you believe in a book that has been corrupted, so assume the Qur'an must be corrupted as well. Lots of reasons why this is untrue:
 
1. Unlike the Bible, the Qur'an's timeline and preservation is recorded and has been traced through the centuries. Even the people who do not believe the Qur'an is divine, believe it is the same Qur'an that was revealed during Prophet Muhammad's time. 
 
2. The Bible's timeline has gaps and loopholes, that leave ample time and opportunity for corruption. On top of it, the Bible was kept away from the common man for centuries, niether was it ever allowed to translated and only priests could read it. I wonder why? Was it so noone could detect any changes in it? VS the Qur'an : common men were allowed to not only learn and recite - but have copies of the Qur'an - which meant that no particular entity ever had a sole right over it - thus making it impossible to change without people noticing.
 
3.  Kings, Monarchs, Leaders were allowed to produce 'versions' of the bible, and change it on whims. They as the 'God's representative' on earth, could decide which 'scriptures' and scrolls to keep, and which to discard. . . basically - they had complete control over the Bible, and made use of that control ample times. Muslim leaders never had a right to make changes in religion, or dictate it. . .
 
4. The 'Bible' today consists more of the ramblings of St. So-and-So than it does actual wordings of 'Jesus'. I thought Jesus was the founder of Christianity? why is it that Paul gets to have his say? Should it not be Paulism instead? VS Islam: Muslims too, respect certain human biengs, but never confused them with 'spiritual biengs' nor did they believe false saints and prophets, or let them claim a supernatural status.
 
5. Anybody in christian history could simply stand up and claim communication with God, and be titled a Saint, and be allowed to mix thier opinions with Christianity. After Prophet Muhammad's death, anybody claiming prophethood or sainthood is sent to the loony-bin - rather than be revered.
 
6. The Christians couldnt even keep the words of men seperate from the word's of Jesus and God !!!! They ended up giving equal importance to the words of common man, and let them penetrate the Bible. Au contraire, Muslims have kept a detailed record of sayings of men, kept it a seperate entity and have not even mixed the words of Prophet Muhammad himself in the Quran . . .
 
7. Majority of Christian tenets were created AFTER Jesus's passing . . . you expect Muslims to believe, that the religion that is based on Jesus - was actually perfected AFTER his "crucifiction"? Why were concepts allowed to enter Christianity AFTER Jesus? Did he Nauzubillah/God forbid not do his job? that Paul had to take over? As a muslim, I can trust Jesus - but I cannot trust false prophets like Paul.
 
8. The languge of the Bible etc was not easily understood and commonly spoken by the majority of christians- which made changes in it easier and undetectable. Unlike Arabic, which was spoken and understood by many muslims.
 
9. Non-muslim Historians and scholars doubt the accuracy of the bible.
 
10. Christian denominations/sects whatever you wanna call it - doubt the accuracy of the bible, whereas no Muslim denomination or "sect" doubts the validity of the Qur'an. If the once-followers of the Bible doubt it themselves, it raises alarm-bells.
 
11. Bible is based 100% on blind-faith . . . . the Qur'an uses logic, and commonsense and facts - and then expects its believers to have a certain level of blind-faith on certain matters.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 02 March 2009 at 10:40am

From Chrysalis:

 

Maybe it doesnt make sense to you because you believe in a book that has been corrupted, so assume the Qur'an must be corrupted as well. Lots of reasons why this is untrue:

 

Chrysalis – in the above statement and elsewhere you constantly refer to the Bible being corrupted but you don’t offer one example of this. Will you please provide us at least one example so we can know what you are talking about.

 

1. Unlike the Bible, the Qur'an's timeline and preservation is recorded and has been traced through the centuries. Even the people who do not believe the Qur'an is divine, believe it is the same Qur'an that was revealed during Prophet Muhammad's time. 

 

Chrysalis – are you being serious? The New Testament alone has a chain of writings from the eyewitnesses who spoke and lived with Jesus all the way to the Greek versions of the New Testament we have copies of today. This chain of written documentation includes letters from contemporaries and the Disciples, their students, Roman historians, the followers of the first students and so on. For example, the last living disciple was John. He confirmed what the other Disciples wrote and his disciples (Polycarp, Papias and Ignatius) confirmed in writing that John wrote the Gospel attributed to him. There were others like Clement of Rome who also confirmed the authorship of the Gospels and the Church was using these Gospels as part of their teaching and practice. Polycarp, Papias and Ignatius had their students and we have the chain of their confirmation in writing as well. E.g. – Irenaeus. During the time of Irenaeus and Tertullian the Church quoted the New Testament in their lectionaries so extensively that we could recreate all but a few verses of the Bible of today from these lectionaries. (The “missing” verses aren’t corrupted or replaced with something else – they simply aren’t quoted). Across this same time frame we have manuscripts and fragments of manuscripts with the same content as the collections we have today – the same ones that were in existence when Mohammed arrived.

 

So please tell us how two hundred years of written gap between Mohammed and the documents Muslims have today is superior to what I have just summarized.

 

 

2. The Bible's timeline has gaps and loopholes, that leave ample time and opportunity for corruption.

 

Please provide an example of this claim.

 

On top of it, the Bible was kept away from the common man for centuries, niether was it ever allowed to translated and only priests could read it.

 

 

This was during the Dark Ages – after Mohammed’s time and after the documents we have in hand today. Any changes made during this time can be identified. Do you have any examples to back up your suspcicions?

 

 

VS the Qur'an : common men were allowed to not only learn and recite - but have copies of the Qur'an - which meant that no particular entity ever had a sole right over it - thus making it impossible to change without people noticing.

 

Please provide an account for how and when the Quran came to be – identifying what the oldest copy you have today is.

 

3.  Kings, Monarchs, Leaders were allowed to produce 'versions' of the bible, and change it on whims.

 

Please show an example of this.

 

 

4. The 'Bible' today consists more of the ramblings of St. So-and-So than it does actual wordings of 'Jesus'.

 

The writers you impugn were eyewitness followers of Jesus who claimed that Jesus authorized them to write and tell others about what He had said. They were given miracle working power to confirm that God had given this authority as well. If you are going to dismiss their accounts and mutual endorsement of each other, you had better have a better reason than you think Jesus should have written down His own words.

 

5. Anybody in christian history could simply stand up and claim communication with God, and be titled a Saint, and be allowed to mix thier opinions with Christianity. After Prophet Muhammad's death, anybody claiming prophethood or sainthood is sent to the loony-bin - rather than be revered.

 

Where did you ever get this idea? First of all, all followers of Jesus are “saints”. The term has come to mean to the world a person the Catholic Church deems worthy of the title but the New Testament refers to all believers as saints. The criteria for being included in the NT as Scripture was – Apostleship by Jesus, writings that had already been accepted and were being read aloud in services by the believers, consistency with other Scripture and contradiction-free, writings created during the Apostolic age, and orthodoxy with Church beliefs. This criteria was also documented in writing before the NT was canonized and it refutes your assertion that anybody could do anything they want.

 

6. The Christians couldnt even keep the words of men seperate from the word's of Jesus and God !!!! They ended up giving equal importance to the words of common man, and let them penetrate the Bible. Au contraire, Muslims have kept a detailed record of sayings of men, kept it a seperate entity and have not even mixed the words of Prophet Muhammad himself in the Quran . . .

 

7. Majority of Christian tenets were created AFTER Jesus's passing . . . you expect Muslims to believe, that the religion that is based on Jesus - was actually perfected AFTER his "crucifiction"? Why were concepts allowed to enter Christianity AFTER Jesus? Did he Nauzubillah/God forbid not do his job? that Paul had to take over? As a muslim, I can trust Jesus - but I cannot trust false prophets like Paul.

 

 

If you trust Jesus you will listen to Him when He says He says to His disciples:

 

Joh 15:26  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Joh 15:27  And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

 

Joh 16:12  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Joh 16:14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Joh 16:15  All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Joh 16:16  A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

 

 

8. The languge of the Bible etc was not easily understood and commonly spoken by the majority of christians- which made changes in it easier and undetectable. Unlike Arabic, which was spoken and understood by many muslims.

 

Completely false – please provide examples to support your assertion. Also, the Quran is written in Arabic and only 15% of Muslims today speak Arabic. At the same time, don’t you believe that reading the Quran in anything but Arabic is imperfect? How can 85% of Muslims today know what the Quran is really saying – without relying on the interpretations by Muslim rulers today?

 

9. Non-muslim Historians and scholars doubt the accuracy of the bible.

 

Because they doubt that God could speak to people or that miracles could ever have happened. They start from that bias and conclude – what they already presumed: That God doesn’t speak to people and miracles can’t occur. If they or you have any objective evidence for the Bible being inaccurate I would love to see it. E.g. – an historical event didn’t happen, an historical person didn’t exist, etc. Otherwise, this is a meaningless statement. These same “scholars” doubt the accuracy of the Quran even more.

 

10. Christian denominations/sects whatever you wanna call it - doubt the accuracy of the bible, whereas no Muslim denomination or "sect" doubts the validity of the Qur'an. If the once-followers of the Bible doubt it themselves, it raises alarm-bells.

 

This is a subjective criteria in two ways. One – why does this matter? It is just your idea of what should exist. Two – the only “Christians” who doubt the accuracy of the Bible are Liberals. Do you include Liberal Muslims in your statement? I think many Liberal Muslims doubt the accuracy of the Quran; they certainly do doubt the reliability of the Hadiths.

 

 

11. Bible is based 100% on blind-faith . . . . the Qur'an uses logic, and commonsense and facts - and then expects its believers to have a certain level of blind-faith on certain matters.

 

I have listed numerous objective attributes of the Bible that you can confirm or refute with facts. Please stop with the naked assertions and counter with some evidence to support your claims. Show where the word patterns don’t exist or how humans can create these. Show where and when the chain of manuscripts and history is broken. Show us how hundreds of prophecies were created and fulfilled by mere men.

 

Apollos

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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 02 March 2009 at 1:00pm
The Holy Bible is the Word of GOD.  Why would GOD let one scripture become corrupt and not any others?!?
 
LOL!!  Now repeat after me the Quran validates the Gosepl and Torah.
 
1.  But it has not- Uthmann burned copies that varied and we have no proof what was burned.  Where are the bones and leaves where the first verses are written?  That would be a complete timeline.  Where is the original written Quran?  Goodness we have the Dead Sea Scroll for hundreds of years, a thousand years earlier.
 
2. The majority of people could not read anyway and would have done them no good.  Not sure what you mean by loopholes, but the gaps in the timeline of the Bible have been filled in from vast collections of manuscripts and writings of early church fathers.  They used scripture in their writings, sermons, etc. 
 
3. I think you and many Muslims are blind to the history of the codexes and canon of the Quran.  A quick study of your hadith shows that there is a big question as to what has been ommitted from the "official" Quran.  You can read the various translations of the Bible and see that the main theme exists and has not been erased or burned.  LOL!!
 
4.  Jesus was the message.  Muslims have 1 "inspired" writer.  Christians have over 40 inspired writers.
 
5.  LOL!! 
 
6.  The Bible is the inpired Word of GOD.  Not only were Jesus words used but also GOD inspired/spoke to the scribes.  No angel go between for the Bible
 
7.  Not sure what you mean here- maybe in the case of the Catholic Church, they hold tradition and scripture equal.  Most christian Churches hold GOD's Scripture as their guide. 
 
8.  What we have the Aramaic Bible, Jesus spoke that and Greek, most people during His lifetime spoke Greek too and the Gospels were written in greek.  The Bible can easily be translated into any langage of the world, yet it is difficult to do with the Quran.
 
9.  Archealogy is proving the Bible accurate in history
 
10.  That is definately their mistake.  The church I attend does not.
 
11.  Again with the blind faith that is not true.If you would read the Bible you would see it is filled with evidence.
 
1 Thessalonians 5
21Test everything. Hold on to the good.
 
Acts 17

11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 02 March 2009 at 1:09pm

Apollo,

I think Nur has put it right, the corrupt bible is a problem for its followers and not Islam. And by the way Islam is only submission to the will of God. And by the way God means One, the Creator of All there is other than God, One of One.

I and you were not present when Bible or the Quran were written and compiled. All we have beside that is stories and explainations of other humans like I and you. So the best way to figure out things in my opinion would be to use all capabilites we seem to use in other important matters. and not to reject logic, reasoning and truth when we discover it in order to examine each one.
 
In my study so far. There are three most important elements to a person's belief:
What is God,
What is not God,
and fulfiling the purpose of life and achieving salvation for the next life. 
 
In my study of the Bible ( as we have it today) I find conflicting information regarding all those three basic elements as a proof of facts.  And this is without any pre-judgement or bias against it. I have said this before that I had more respect for the book before I read and known it because I always believed it was from God, and thus never questioned Christian claims. Now that I have read and known it I do believe that the word of God has been mixed up with falshood by men. And discovering that truth does not take one away rather near to God, who loves the truth.
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 02 March 2009 at 1:15pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 02 March 2009 at 2:25pm
You either believe that the Bible is the uncorrupted Word of God or that it is not. If you believe it to be uncorrupted then you must believe that God has made many mistakes within the texts of the Bible. Numerous lists of these mistakes, corruptions, contradictions, whatever you wish to call them, can be found everywhere.
 
Here are a few that are particularly troublesome.
 
I have posted this before but got no response:
 
Matthew 11:27 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
 
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
 
Matthew 24:36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
 
In Matthew 11 and 28 Jesus states that he has authority over all things regarding the heavens and the earth, yet in Matthew 24 he states that no one knows the time of the end, not even him, just the Father. 
 
This one is regarding Judas and the betrayal of Jesus. According to the Gospels of Matthew and Mark, Judas betrayed Jesus for pay:
 
Matthew 26:14 Then one of the twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,

 15 and said, What are ye willing to give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they weighed unto him thirty pieces of silver.

 16 And from that time he sought opportunity to deliver him unto them.

Mark 14:10Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them.
 
11They were delighted to hear this and promised to give him money. So he watched for an opportunity to hand him over.
 
According to John the devil gave Judas the idea:
 
John 13:2 And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him,
 
and according to the Gospel of Luke Satan possessed Judas:
 
Luke 22:3 And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
 
If Judas were indeed possessed by Satan this is a whole new story. How could Judas be held responsible for the actions of Satan?  Judas' body would have just been an unwitting pawn used by Satan to betray Jesus, and Jesus' statement that Judas would betray him would also be incorrect. It would change the whole concept of the Judas kiss and his subsequent suicide.
 
So, which of these versions is correct and how did there come to be three differing versions to begin with IF the Bible is the uncorrupted Word of God?
 
What about the Biblical, I should say Torah here, version of the creation of man:
 
Genesis 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the ground after its kind: and God saw that it was good.

 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 2:7Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

 8The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.

 9Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 10Now a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four rivers.

 11The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.

 12The gold of that land is good; the bdellium and the onyx stone are there.

 13The name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush.

 14The name of the third river is Tigris; it flows east of Assyria And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

 15Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.

 16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;

 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

 18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

 19Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

 20The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.

 21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.

 22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

 In Genesis 1 God created the beasts of the earth, then created man and woman simultaneously as a pair. In Genesis 2 God created man first, then created the beasts of the earth, then created woman. Which is the correct account?

If these scriptures are uncorrupted then the only explanation can be that God has made mistakes. As Muslims we do not believe that God can make mistakes, God is infallible, period....  So the only other possibility is that man has corrupted the original texts.
 
I have also posted this before, a perfect example of how man corrupted the texts of the Bible:
 
1Jo 5:7,8 - an example of textual corruption. Even up to the fifth and final edition of Erasmus' Greek text in 1535, Erasmus occasionally fell prey to pressure from Roman Catholic church authorities to add to subsequent editions phrases and entire verses that he strongly (and rightly) suspected were not part of the original text. Metzger (Ibid., pages 100-101) and others document how Erasmus was manipulated to include what later was translated into the KJV in 1Jo 5:7-8, the following text: "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth." Conservative biblical scholar F.F. Bruce (History of the English Bible, Third Edition, New York: Oxford University Press, 1978, pages 141-142) explains the sad history of how those words were errantly added to Erasmus' Greek text of 1Jo 5:7-8:

The words ["in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth."] omitted in the R.V. [Revised Version, 1881] were no part of the original Greek text, nor yet of the Latin Vulgate in its earliest form. They first appear in the writings of a Spanish Christian leader named Priscillian, who was executed for heresy in A.D. 385. Later they made their way into copies of the Latin text of the Bible. When Erasmus prepared his printed edition of the Greek New Testament, he rightly left those words out, but was attacked for this by people who felt that the passage was a valuable proof-text for the doctrine of the Trinity. He replied (rather incautiously) that if he could be shown any Greek manuscript which contained the words, he would include them in his next edition. Unfortunately, a Greek manuscript not more than some twenty years old was produced in which the words appeared: they had been translated into Greek from Latin. Of course, the fact that the only Greek manuscript exhibiting the words belonged to the sixteenth century was in itself an argument against their authenticity, but Erasmus had given his promise, and so in his 1522 edition he included the passage. (To-day one or two other very late Greek manuscripts are known to contain this passages; all others omit it.)

[For more details on Erasmus' addition of the 1Jo 5:7,8 text, see Metzger's The Text of the New Testament, Second Edition, pages 101-102 and also http://www.bibletexts.com/versecom/1jo05v07.htm.]
 
 
 
 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 04 March 2009 at 7:21am
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