IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Woman and Islam

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Originally posted by Hayfa

And China bans religion  period.. or they did. They murdered thousands of Buddhist monks.. they oppress the Muslim Chinese people-predominantly the Ughars or western China.. 

I don't think they are fond of any religion...eh

And I can certainly bring a Bible to school. Do we read from it etc. No. But nothing prohibits me from reading a Bible, The Quran or any other religious text..

In fact there is more protest in places like the south for even learning about the Quran on college campuses.. One college in North CArolina wanted to use texts from it as a general introduction to thoughts and ideas for new students and the parents protested so much the college took it out! 

My father who worked for Catholic Relief Services for all of Asia lived a couple of years in Pakistan. The Bible was not banned. There were certainly Catholics there.. 

With the exception of Saudi Arabia there is no outright ban. Every country may have restruictions about what you can and cannot do in regards to religion in general or other faiths that are not dominant. 

In fact the very good Muslim family I know in Karachi had a copy of the Bible in their house. So making sweeping judgements is not accurate.  

Hayfa,
You are really missing the point. Is that your strategy? I have wasted a lot of time answering questions and objections you make based on misquoting something I said. Will you please pay attention to my exact words and the context in which I make them?

I did not make a sweeping judgment about banning the Bible. The quote and context are repeated below:

I provided examples of the early Christians and their influence because it is the best reflection of Christians who practiced what they believed and taught. After governments and leaders started aligning itself with Christianity the Church started becoming weakened and corrupted. It still existed and the doctrines were defended even when their practice was not. I believe that the corrupting influence was the governmental powers but reasonable people may think there is another explanation. The key thing is – Christians in the past and now, should have one authority in their beliefs and practice and that is the Word of God. Ancient and current governments know this a threat to their authority and their ability to manipulate Christians so the Bible has been banned as much as possible. Many Christians have died to bring the Bible to others and when you see a government – in the past or now - trying to prevent the Bible from being read by the common person, that is a pretty strong argument against that government being a “Christian” country.

As you can see the point of the above was to show the distinction between Christians and so-called Christians. The latter have usually been governments who act contrary to the Bible. So you are objecting to a position of your own making. I agree with most of what you are saying. So what? You haven’t refuted what I have actually said on this point. And if you did – what is the point? To prove me wrong on at least one petty thing? I’m flattered.

I have already conceded that my observations – which are apparently broader than yours – are anecdotal and not justification for drawing the initial conclusions I did. I am not ready to accept your contention that Islam is a better situation for women but I am willing to leave the “debate” to the women it effects. 

Apollos

Author	Message
Apollos Senior Member Joined: 29 January 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 426	Posted: 25 February 2009 at 8:37pm
	*Originally posted by Hayfa* And China bans religion period.. or they did. They murdered thousands of Buddhist monks.. they oppress the Muslim Chinese people-predominantly the Ughars or western China.. I don't think they are fond of any religion...eh And I can certainly bring a Bible to school. Do we read from it etc. No. But nothing prohibits me from reading a Bible, The Quran or any other religious text.. In fact there is more protest in places like the south for even learning about the Quran on college campuses.. One college in North CArolina wanted to use texts from it as a general introduction to thoughts and ideas for new students and the parents protested so much the college took it out! My father who worked for Catholic Relief Services for all of Asia lived a couple of years in Pakistan. The Bible was not banned. There were certainly Catholics there.. With the exception of Saudi Arabia there is no outright ban. Every country may have restruictions about what you can and cannot do in regards to religion in general or other faiths that are not dominant. In fact the very good Muslim family I know in Karachi had a copy of the Bible in their house. So making sweeping judgements is not accurate. Hayfa, You are really missing the point. Is that your strategy? I have wasted a lot of time answering questions and objections you make based on misquoting something I said. Will you please pay attention to my exact words and the context in which I make them? I did not make a sweeping judgment about banning the Bible. The quote and context are repeated below: I provided examples of the early Christians and their influence because it is the best reflection of Christians who practiced what they believed and taught. After governments and leaders started aligning itself with Christianity the Church started becoming weakened and corrupted. It still existed and the doctrines were defended even when their practice was not. I believe that the corrupting influence was the governmental powers but reasonable people may think there is another explanation. The key thing is – Christians in the past and now, should have one authority in their beliefs and practice and that is the Word of God. Ancient and current governments know this a threat to their authority and their ability to manipulate Christians so the Bible has been banned as much as possible. Many Christians have died to bring the Bible to others and when you see a government – in the past or now - trying to prevent the Bible from being read by the common person, that is a pretty strong argument against that government being a “Christian” country. As you can see the point of the above was to show the distinction between Christians and so-called Christians. The latter have usually been governments who act contrary to the Bible. So you are objecting to a position of your own making. I agree with most of what you are saying. So what? You haven’t refuted what I have actually said on this point. And if you did – what is the point? To prove me wrong on at least one petty thing? I’m flattered. I have already conceded that my observations – which are apparently broader than yours – are anecdotal and not justification for drawing the initial conclusions I did. I am not ready to accept your contention that Islam is a better situation for women but I am willing to leave the “debate” to the women it effects. Apollos
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Apollos Senior Member Joined: 29 January 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 426	Posted: 25 February 2009 at 8:51pm
	From Apollos: Ancient and current governments know this a threat to their authority and their ability to manipulate Christians so the Bible has been banned as much as possible. Your implication is that I am wrong and that you will concede that I am correct if I provide details. Will you? Here are a few examples of current governments who ban the Bible as much as possible. The United States of America - The Bible is not allowed in public facilities, it can not be quoted in public forums, and it is forbidden as a basis for reaching a decision in the courtroom. China – The government restricts the number of Bibles that can be published or imported. If someone brings in a suitcase full of Bibles, the Bibles will be confiscated and the person may detained, depending on whether they are foreign or Chinese. Saudi Arabia - Proselytizing by non-Muslims, including the distribution of non-Muslim religious materials such as Bibles, is illegal. [/Quote] From Chrysalis: Saudia Arabia is the only country, that actually 'bans' Bibles as such (it bans the propogation of bible, christians are allowed to own them and read/practise it) But China??? China is a communist state, that controls just about everything . . . so it may have a problem with bringing 'suitcase' fulls of it in. They control/limit all sorts of literary material btw. . . not just bibles. BUT for the sake of the argument, lets agree that china bans bibles. USA ? ? ? Now this is quite a ridiculous statement. The USA does not 'ban' the bible!!! So they dont use it in courtrooms for reaching a decision! big deal!!! Thats because they do not use any religous texts to come to a decision! (maybe because the accuracy is controversial?) How does that mean USA bans the bible??? USA is home to some of the most fundamental christians around! you have teleevangelists, etc what not. You are now making things up. You have 3 silly reasons to support the statement that the Bible is banned in the USA!!!! When I went to the USA, I stayed in 4 different hotels. . . all had a copy of the bible in the room!!!! There are institutions that will mail you a free bible - wherever you are in the USA! I as a muslim, sitting at the corner of the world know that, I'm surprised you dont. Saudia Arabia is so far the only example which is true. . . . and I am willing to accept China. . . but USA? 2 countries that 'ban' the bible hardly means that current govts today are trying to ban it as much as possible. Its like you are making a mountain out of a molehill, and imagining a scenario that doesnt even exist. **************** Chrysalis, Is this a big game to you? I have wasted a lot of time correcting your misquoting something I said. Will you please pay attention to my exact words and the context in which I make them? I did not say a complete ban did I? I used the qualifiers "as much as possible", didn't I? And you have confirmed that at least one of my examples is correct, didn't you? I don't know what your goal is in being such a rabid objector but it is only wasting text and time. Even when you agree with my facts, you try to make it appear that you have corrected me. And the crazy thing is - I have already conceded a significant point to the Muslims here and you don't seem to care. What is your agenda? Mine is clear and stated many times. I want to understand what Muslims believe and why. I will press and probe to make sure we are communicating and I am not missing something. I will explain what I believe and why and at times I have admitted to learning something new. If you simply want to argue for argument sake, please find someone else to play with. Apollos
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Hayfa Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2370	Posted: 26 February 2009 at 6:00am
	Apollo, Please do not tell me that I did not 'read carfefully' what you wrote. First I can post comments on any aspect you write. I don't have to 'debate' anyone. That is not my point. I have my perspective and you have yours.. and then you tell Chrysallis that she should not 'argue for argue sakes.' It is not about 'refuting' petty points. They may seem 'petty' to you. I have never commented or made judgements upon what you have written- by calling what you write 'petty.' We are just sharing what each of us know. And I would disagree with you that your observations are any more 'broader' than mine or anyone elses here. Considering that I have probably met far more Muslim women then you have and respect their values and goals in life (even before I became a Muslim) I don't think you are more "worldly' than I. And I would say I have far more of an open mind towards other religions than maybe you have. I don't sit and blame Christianity for the murders and rapes of many women in Guatemala. I have traveled in "Christian,' Buddhist, and Muslim countires. And the title of your post is "Women and Islam." And I would disgree that women suffer more in Muslim countries than other countries. And I would disagree actually that religion is the root cause of the issues that women face. I am not 'debating' you or 'nitpicking'. Just stating my opinion. And its just as valid as anyone elses.
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Apollos Senior Member Joined: 29 January 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 426	Posted: 26 February 2009 at 6:56am
	*Originally posted by Hayfa* Apollo, I have never commented or made judgements upon what you have written And I would disagree with you that .... Seems like you just contradicted yourself in the same post. Of course I took partial statements and took you out of context but who cares right? After all - "I can post comments on any aspect you write. I don't have to 'debate' anyone." Correct? Apollos
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Saladin Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 04 September 2007 Location: Sri Lanka Online Status: Offline Posts: 575	Posted: 26 February 2009 at 1:50pm
	Apollos, Seemingly, you're here with a load of presumptions and queries, wanting to hear what you want to hear rather than the facts and when you dont get what you want, you get more presumptuous. Net result - 'waste of your time and importantly other people's time'. I'll give a tip - 'When you want to learn something, first learn to heed and then judge or deduce. After that you can diffuse your dandies to us illogical lot and enlighten us with your super logic. Btw, I see you got antsy with the sisters and accused them of lying, disingenuity and dismissed their honest replies with a sense of uppitiness. I'm wondering if this is how your belief teaches you to behave towards ladies or anyone not holding your belief. Aint right?
	'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 26 February 2009 at 6:45pm
	Apollo, with all respect I have a feeling that you are not serious nor sincere about anything, you have a purpose in mind, and that seems to decieve others. Let me be clear, God gave equal rights to both Adam and Eve and their generations. The guidance that came though his messangers throughout the human age came from God. And the last guidance came from God to humanity through Quran and prophet Mohammed (pbuh). What God gave to Jesus or Moses (pbut) was also from God, only we don't have it in its original form and that's why God sent Quran. You are motivated with wrong ideas, to come up even with this topic and braging about that yours is better thatn mine is childish. Unless your purpose is to spread falsehood and confusion. A man of God does not do that. God gave equal rights to both and different roles and duties. Made one stonger than the other for a purpose. Women's rights are violated by man everywhere. Those who are bound to do so don't have boundries, I know not a place regardless of any boundries that is amuned from such behavior, whether be from the West, East, North or South. You don't have to take a man's word, there are many women right here in the West that were not born or raised in Islam, and they now live by Islam and they talk of the respect and rights God gave them through Islam. They did not know that in fact it was not them (woman) as they were told through the Bible esponsible for the fall of Adam, and that there childbirth pain was not a punishment as mentioned in the Bible. Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." They say that through Islam they know that both Adam and Eve were responsible for their disobidience and thus were taken out of the Paradise together. They also learn that God, the Mercyful accepted their plea and forgave them, and there was nothing like original sin. You got to be kidding and seems to be confused between ever changing Western values with Christian values. By the way you did not answer by earlier question to you Apollo? Hasan Edited by honeto - 26 February 2009 at 6:52pm
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 26 February 2009 at 6:50pm
	Apollo, with all respect I have a feeling that you are not serious nor sincere about anything, you have a purpose in mind, and that seems to decieve others. Let me be clear, God gave equal rights to both Adam and Eve and their generations. The guidance that came though his messangers throughout the human age came from God. And the last guidance came from God to humanity through Quran and prophet Mohammed (pbuh). What God gave to Jesus or Moses (pbut) was also from God, only we don't have it in its original form and that's why God sent Quran. You are motivated with wrong ideas, to come up even with this topic and braging about that yours is better than mine is childish. Unless your purpose is to spread falsehood and confusion. A man of God does not do that. God gave equal rights to both and different roles and duties. Made one stonger than the other for a purpose. Women's rights are violated by man everywhere. Those who are bound to do so don't have boundries, nor any beleif and it has nothing to do if you are this or that. I know not a place regardless of any boundries that is amuned from such behavior, whether be from the West, East, North or South. You don't have to take a man's word, there are many women right here in the West that were not born or raised in Islam, and they now live by Islam and they talk of the respect and rights God gave them through Islam. They did not know that in fact it was not them (woman) as they were told through the Bible responsible for the fall of Adam, and that their childbirth pain was not a punishment as mentioned in the Bible. Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." They say that through Islam they know that both Adam and Eve were responsible for their disobidience and thus were taken out of the Paradise together. They also learn that God, the Mercyful accepted their plea and forgave them, and there was nothing like original sinnor were woman to blame for the fall of Adam. You got to be kidding and seems to be confused between ever changing Western values with Christian values. By the way you did not answer by earlier question to you Apollo? Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 26 February 2009 at 7:04pm
	*Originally posted by Chrysalis* [QUOTE=Apollos] Chrysalis, When a person intentionally lies, I am not interested in discussing anything with them again. I’m going to give you the benefit if the doubt on a couple of posts and let’s see if you want to admit you were mistaken. If not, this is the last time I will interact with you. It would have been nice, had you stated the reason why you think I am a 'Liar'. You are under no obligation to reply to my posts. . . and should only reply if you wish to do so. I could choose to be offended on your manner, I will however choose not to. [Quote] Sister, This person has accused me of lying also and will not respond to my posts. The only reason for doing so is that you answer his/her posts with intelligence and proof that is beyond refutation. If he/she cannot disprove what you have said he/she accuses you of wrong doing and refuses to answer you. Not to worry, at this rate he/she will soon disappear as there will be no one left that he/she will "interact" with. Personally I find it rather amusing, and it certainly hasn't stopped me from replying to some of the more outrageous posts in the hopes that others reading will benefit. Salaams
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
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