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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 23 February 2009 at 6:35pm

Apollo,

I have a question for you, what rights a woman has against an abusive husband. And what is the status of divorce in Chrsitianity. I need refrances from the Bible with your reply.

Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 24 February 2009 at 6:32am
Originally posted by believer

Jesus brought radical change to the way women were treated.
 
1 Corinthians 7

3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

I see. So the Bible asks husbands to fulfill thier marital duty to the wife. That is good. . . . but very generic wouldnt you say? How is that a "radical " change? Also, I would think this verse is talking of physical relations, no? (marital duty, body etc) When you said there was a "radical"  change, I expected something out of the ordinary and life-changing . . . . e.g. banning age-old practises of female infanticide, giving women inheritance rights, divorce rights, financial rights, giving women freedom of expression/opinions, the right to give and get education etc
 
 
Most important-
Ephesians 5

 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

 
Also nice. . . but considering that 'love' b/w spouses is an age old concept - which the bible simply re-stated does not count as a radical change.
 
Also, I find it kind of contradictory and strange, especially since Paul said bachelorhood is to be preferred and marriage is not reccommended in Christianity. The Pious people of Christianity are not supposed to get married??? Which is why Bishops and Popes and men of the cloth had to 'hide' thier wives/mistresses and keep them a secret.
 
I'm afraid its still a far cry from the detail Islam went into when it comes to female-rights, not only preaching, but practising.
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 24 February 2009 at 6:57am
 
 My observations about the condition of Muslim women is derived from traveling in the Middle East and the United States, listening to women who have left Islamic countries and listening to Muslim men talk about women.
 
Where did you listen to such women? On the media? Women who 'left' Islam, so they could publish a pathetic life-story, fool the Islamophobes, cash in, and get a few minutes of fame? And which men? the 'scholars' that people love posting about on you-tube? Obviousley women who have 'left "islamic" counrtries ' to settle in the USA have an agenda? Political Asylum? (Dont get me started on that! Tongue)
 
If you yourself met such people, (which I somewhat doubt, considering your anti-islam opinions) they must have been a minority. . . . or are you telling as that all muslims or a majority that you have met have hated Islam? Anyway, I am glad you decided to get the real picture. That was a nice initiative by you, and is to be respected.
 
And I'm sorry if I am nit-picking, but while travelling the Middle East, how much of a glimpse did you really have, in the lives of Muslim Women? Maybe it was how you interpreted what you saw (e.g. looking at a Burqa/Niqab/Hijab-clad woman perhaps you thought she was supressed?)
 
All of this leads me to the conclusion that very few women choose Islam on their own.
 
Surprisingly, the percentage of female converts to Islam is higher than that of male muslim converts! Interesting, no? Just go to the homepage of Islamicity or anyother muslim website that runs the names of recent converts on thier homepage - half or more are women. Here at Islamicity forum, we have more female muslim converts here, then men. Hayfa who posted here is one of them.
 
What about all the Muslim Women who choose to follow Islam, and love it and cannot stand critisicm against it? Dont they count? These women are of a higher count than any anti-islam 'muslim' woman.
 
 
On the other hand, the majority of Christians and Church attendees are women and this can be proved objectively. I can't prove my suspcicions about what Muslim women would choose if they could. Can you? 
 
I am sure that its true that there are more female christian attendees at Chruch. I also have met Christian women online, who have blasted Islam's treatment of women, but when they were given Bible verses that talk of women - flat out refused to believe them, or simply said they dont stand anymore/ we dont have to follow them. All these Christian women have strong faith, and love Jesus - I agree. . . but they hardly follow/agree with the scripture. Saying that they attend Church is not an 'objective' reason. These women are Christian, because they love Jesus, and God, want Salvation . . . not because Christianity 'elevates' thier status as women, because I have yet to be given examples of how. (I am not talking about generic examples etc).
 
 
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 24 February 2009 at 7:49pm

Chrysalis,

 

When a person intentionally lies, I am not interested in discussing anything with them again. I’m going to give you the benefit if the doubt on a couple of posts and let’s see if you want to admit you were mistaken. If not, this is the last time I will interact with you.

 

From Apollos:

Ancient and current governments know this a threat to their authority and their ability to manipulate Christians so the Bible has been banned as much as possible.

 From Chrysalis:

Really? How? When? By whom?

From Apollos:

You answer this question yourself further down. During the Dark Ages, by those calling themselves Christian leaders but actually Vasal rulers of the Government.

 From Chrysalis:

I already know of the great atrocities committed in Christendom, by Christians. But what current governments today ban the bible?

FROM APOLLOS:

Your implication is that I am wrong and that you will concede that I am correct if I provide details. Will you? Here are a few examples of current governments who ban the Bible as much as possible.

 

The United States of America - The Bible is not allowed in public facilities, it can not be quoted in public forums, and it is forbidden as a basis for reaching a decision in the courtroom.

 

China – The government restricts the number of Bibles that can be published or imported. If someone brings in a suitcase full of Bibles, the Bibles will be confiscated and the person may detained, depending on whether they are foreign or Chinese.

 

Saudi Arabia - Proselytizing by non-Muslims, including the distribution of non-Muslim religious materials such as Bibles, is illegal.

 

 

From Chrysalis to Apollos:

I did read your original post on the topic, You did not give any evidence from scriptures or any references, you just wrote an essay on what you thought and percieved to be the case. So you dont have any evidence from scriptures/other sources, thats oK, I shall not insist further. However, until you do post some references, no point in telling us what you think.

Since you have not commented on any of the Qur'anic verses I mentioned that talk of your supposed notion of 'inferiority' . . . I assumed that it cleared your misconception of how Islam treats women. . . however, it seems that it still has not. Did you skip over the Quranic Verses? Something tells me that facts/reality doesnt really matter for you (since you never post any yourself), but okay, lets play along, for the reader's sake.

 

From Apollos:

 

I am re-posting the comments I made in response to the verses you posted and the original Scripture references I posted. You are welcome to disagree with what I posted previously but you are lying when you say I never post facts, “evidence from Scripture”, that I did not comment on the Quranic verses you posted, etc. Please let me know if you were just mistaken or you want to persist in your claims above.

 

Posted by Apollos on 2/23/09:

The Muslims here have informed me of some Islamic statements I was not aware of and to the degree I assumed the Quran supported the poor conditions for Muslim women, I stand corrected.

 

Original post by Apollos:

The Christian view emanates from passages like the below –

Gal 3:26  For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27  For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Eph 5:25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

 1Pe 5:5  Likewise, younger ones, be subject to older ones, and all being subject to one another. Put on humility. For God resists proud ones, but He gives grace to the humble

 

Apollos

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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 25 February 2009 at 6:23am
Apollo,
 
Assuming you have traveled in the Middle East, how many women have did you really talk to? There is a strong segregation of the sexes.. depending upon the city, town or place..
 
Women are not required to attend a mosque so the "numbers" would not be in any way accurate of comparison. I do not go to the masjid. I am not asked to go except on one or two days of the year.. and that is if I can go.
 
When I was born my parents "chose" for me to be raised a Catholic. All parents install whatever values they want in their children. Its like I met Buddhists in Thailand who were raised Buddhist by their parents. Met plenty of Catholics raised by their parents as Catholic. So to say 'women do not choose Islam" is sort of silly would you not agree?
 
Its like the man who goes to Church and beats his wife, of course he is not following what Jesus taught. This is the same for a Muslim man. So to me its all the same aspect. People abuse other people. We have hunger and poverty, cruelty and violence EVERYWHERE.
 
Having actually MET many women in Pakistan the issue is not religion, it is often poverty that negatively affects women and children. I think this is true globally, whether in Pakistan, South Africa, the US or Haiti. I would also add war to this as well.
 
I would say that the challenge for Muslims is to emulate the Prophet.. he was such an amazing man. Its the same for Christians to emulate Jesus.. very hard to do! Both in actions, thoughts and deeds. I think you would agree, eh?
 
I have friends from all walks of life and really the concerns are pretty similiar:
1. Do I have a good relationship with my husband? Is he kind, patient, a good provider for the children?
2. Do I have a place to live and security?
3. Do I get along with my family (my mom is driving  me crazy..lol)
4. Is my job interesting and pleasant?
5. What will I do on my day off? (Is there really a day off for any mothers??)
 
Its like Apollo, when I was in Thailand and volunteered at a place for abused elephants.. and to see the horrible cruelty exhibited by people to these beautiful creatures.. it hwas unfathomable.. It is NOT part of Buddhism whatsoever. And yet the acts were committed by 'Buddhists.'
 
 
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 25 February 2009 at 8:08am
Originally posted by Apollos

Chrysalis,

 

When a person intentionally lies, I am not interested in discussing anything with them again. I’m going to give you the benefit if the doubt on a couple of posts and let’s see if you want to admit you were mistaken. If not, this is the last time I will interact with you.

 
 
It would have been nice, had you stated the reason why you think I am a 'Liar'. You are under no obligation to reply to my posts. . . and should only reply if you wish to do so. I could choose to be offended on your manner, I will however choose not to.

 

From Apollos:

Ancient and current governments know this a threat to their authority and their ability to manipulate Christians so the Bible has been banned as much as possible. 

Your implication is that I am wrong and that you will concede that I am correct if I provide details. Will you? Here are a few examples of current governments who ban the Bible as much as possible.

 

The United States of America - The Bible is not allowed in public facilities, it can not be quoted in public forums, and it is forbidden as a basis for reaching a decision in the courtroom.

 

China – The government restricts the number of Bibles that can be published or imported. If someone brings in a suitcase full of Bibles, the Bibles will be confiscated and the person may detained, depending on whether they are foreign or Chinese.

 

Saudi Arabia - Proselytizing by non-Muslims, including the distribution of non-Muslim religious materials such as Bibles, is illegal.

 
Saudia Arabia is the only country, that actually 'bans' Bibles as such (it bans the propogation of bible, christians are allowed to own them and read/practise it)
 
But China??? China is a communist state, that controls just about everything . . . so it may have a problem with bringing 'suitcase' fulls of it in. They control/limit all sorts of literary material btw. . .  not just bibles. BUT for the sake of the argument, lets agree that china bans bibles.
 
USA ? ? ? Now this is quite a ridiculous statement. The USA does not 'ban' the bible!!! So they dont use it in courtrooms for reaching a decision! big deal!!! Thats because they do not use any religous texts to come to a decision! (maybe because the accuracy is controversial?) How does that mean USA bans the bible??? USA is home to some of the most fundamental christians around! you have teleevangelists, etc what not. You are now making things up. You have 3 silly reasons to support the statement that the Bible is banned in the USA!!!!
 
When I went to the USA, I stayed in 4 different hotels. . . all had a copy of the bible in the room!!!! There are institutions that will mail you a free bible - wherever you are in the USA! I as a muslim, sitting at the corner of the world know that, I'm surprised you dont.
 
Saudia Arabia is so far the only example which is true. . . . and I am willing to accept China. . . but USA? 2 countries that 'ban' the bible hardly means that current govts today are trying to ban it as much as possible. Its like you are making a mountain out of a molehill, and imagining a scenario that doesnt even exist.
 
 
 

From Chrysalis to Apollos:

I did read your original post on the topic, You did not give any evidence from scriptures or any references, you just wrote an essay on what you thought and percieved to be the case. So you dont have any evidence from scriptures/other sources, thats oK, I shall not insist further. However, until you do post some references, no point in telling us what you think.

I am re-posting the comments I made in response to the verses you posted and the original Scripture references I posted. You are welcome to disagree with what I posted previously but you are lying when you say I never post facts, “evidence from Scripture”, that I did not comment on the Quranic verses you posted, etc. Please let me know if you were just mistaken or you want to persist in your claims above.

 

Original post by Apollos:

The Christian view emanates from passages like the below –

Gal 3:26  For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27  For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Eph 5:25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

 1Pe 5:5  Likewise, younger ones, be subject to older ones, and all being subject to one another. Put on humility. For God resists proud ones, but He gives grace to the humble

Apollos

It would be wrong to say that you posted "no" references. . . . I should rephrase it to say that you did not post adequate references to support the claim that the 'Bible elevates women'. Infact, the ones above hardly support your point. Remember, you claimed that Christianity is responsible for the status today's women enjoy:

Appollos:
 
This is why everywhere that Christianity has went in the world and been able to influence a culture or government, the status of women has been elevated and the conditions for women has dramatically improved.
 
I expect you to back it up legally, financially, socially, politically.
Only 2 verses above actually refer to women. . . and they are 'generic' verses. 'women are good/equal' . . . very well, how? Tell me what legal, financial, political rights the bible gives women?
 
In today's time, you cannot say the bible says women are equal, when they dont enjoy the same rights as men. . . . . you need to substantiate it.
 


Edited by Chrysalis - 25 February 2009 at 8:12am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 25 February 2009 at 8:36am
And China bans religion  period.. or they did. They murdered thousands of Buddhist monks.. they oppress the Muslim Chinese people-predominantly the Ughars or western China..
 
I don't think they are fond of any religion...eh
 
And I can certainly bring a Bible to school. Do we read from it etc. No. But nothing prohibits me from reading a Bible, The Quran or any other religious text..
 
In fact there is more protest in places like the south for even learning about the Quran on college campuses.. One college in North CArolina wanted to use texts from it as a general introduction to thoughts and ideas for new students and the parents protested so much the college took it out!
 
My father who worked for Catholic Relief Services for all of Asia lived a couple of years in Pakistan. The Bible was not banned. There were certainly Catholics there..
 
With the exception of Saudi Arabia there is no outright ban. Every country may have restruictions about what you can and cannot do in regards to religion in general or other faiths that are not dominant.
 
In fact the very good Muslim family I know in Karachi had a copy of the Bible in their house. So making sweeping judgements is not accurate.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 25 February 2009 at 7:42pm
From Apollos:
 
Chrysalis,

 

When a person intentionally lies, I am not interested in discussing anything with them again. I’m going to give you the benefit if the doubt on a couple of posts and let’s see if you want to admit you were mistaken. If not, this is the last time I will interact with you.

 
From Chrysalis: 
 
It would have been nice, had you stated the reason why you think I am a 'Liar'. You are under no obligation to reply to my posts. . . and should only reply if you wish to do so. I could choose to be offended on your manner, I will however choose not to.

 

It would be wrong to say that you posted "no" references. . . . I should rephrase it to say that you did not post adequate references to support the claim that the 'Bible elevates women'. Infact, the ones above hardly support your point. Remember, you claimed that Christianity is responsible for the status today's women enjoy:
From Apollos:
 
Chrysalis,
 
Though I can see it is a half-hearted admission on your part, I appreciate you admitting your error. This is one of the statements I was referring to.
 
What about the concession I made in responding to your quotations of Quranic verses - that you claimed I ignored? Would you like to correct yourself on that accusation as well?
 
Apollos
 
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