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Apollos
 
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Topic: Woman and Islam
    Posted: 20 February 2009 at 3:12pm

I think we would all agree that there is a dramatic difference in the way women are viewed and treated in Islam versus Christianity. The Christian view emanates from passages like the below –

 

Gal 3:26  For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27  For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Eph 5:25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

 

1Pe 5:5  Likewise, younger ones, be subject to older ones, and all being subject to one another. Put on humility. For God resists proud ones, but He gives grace to the humble.

 

This is why everywhere that Christianity has went in the world and been able to influence a culture or government, the status of women has been elevated and the conditions for women has dramatically improved. Conversely, the countries with the most miserable conditions for women compared to the men happens to be in countries and areas that are dominated by Islamic beliefs and culture. Is there a political system, a religious system or a culture that exhibits more oppression on women than Islam? If there is I can’t think of it.

 

QUESTION 1 –DO YOU AGREE?

 
QUESTION 2 - ARE MUSLIMS PROUD OF HOW WOMEN’S LIVES ARE UNDER ISLAMIC RULE?

 

The Bible tells us to expect hatred (enmity) between Satan and women and between Satan’s children and the “seed of the woman”, i.e. - the Messiah.

 

Gen 3:15  (God speaking to the Serpent/Satan): And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

 

Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great sign in the heavens, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head,

Rev 12:2  and having a babe in womb, she cries, being in travail, having been distressed to bear.

Rev 12:3  And another sign was seen in the heavens. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads!

Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them onto the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman being about to bear, so that when she bears he might devour her child.

Rev 12:5  And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, so that they might nourish her there a thousand, two hundred and sixty days.

Rev 12:7  And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels warred,

Rev 12:8  but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more.

Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who bore the man child .

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Whether the Bible is corrupted or not, hundreds of years before Mohammed lived the Bible says that the Satan will hate and persecute women in general and the Messiah that comes into the world through a woman. This hatred and persecution will continue until the end of this age.

 

QUESTION 3 – HOW DID THE WRITERS KNOW THIS TYPE OF PERSECUTION OF WOMEN WOULD ARISE OR CONTINUE?

 

QUESTION 4 – WHAT WORLD SYSTEM OR CULTURE COOPERATES MOST WITH THIS AGENDA THAT THE BIBLE ATTRIBUTES TO SATAN?

 

Apollos

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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 21 February 2009 at 3:59am
Originally posted by Apollos

I think we would all agree that there is a dramatic difference in the way women are viewed and treated in Islam versus Christianity.  –

Yes, there is a dramatic difference. Do we really want to go there? Smile
 
I think we are getting to the point now Apollos. . . 

 

This is why everywhere that Christianity has went in the world and been able to influence a culture or government, the status of women has been elevated and the conditions for women has dramatically improved.
 
Interesting point of view. However, it is interesting to note that the treatment of women under Christianity started to improve only after the christians advanced into other countries and cultures, and widened thier perspective. Until that point, saying that christian women were treated well, is incorrect, and somewhat laughable. The Church didnt even believe women had a soul! It took them ages to actually confirm the presence of a woman's soul. But lets not get into examples already. 
 
 
Conversely, the countries with the most miserable conditions for women compared to the men happens to be in countries and areas that are dominated by Islamic beliefs and culture. Is there a political system, a religious system or a culture that exhibits more oppression on women than Islam? If there is I can’t think of it.
 
Really? thats not true. Women are discrimnated against and treated unwell, in almost all countries and communities today - including countries where muslims live. However you can not translate that to mean Islam oppresses women. Two entirely different, unequatable concepts.
 
 

QUESTION 1 –DO YOU AGREE?

 
No. I disagree. I think the way Islam treats women is revolutionary, (and at one point I had a rather feministic point of view) and on the contrary there are lots of religions that have yet to come at par when it comes to treatment of religion some examples that I can think of (which you cannot) are: Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism.
 
 
QUESTION 2 - ARE MUSLIMS PROUD OF HOW WOMEN’S LIVES ARE UNDER ISLAMIC RULE?
 
Yes. You said 'under islamic rule' right? Then yes, we are.

 

The Bible tells us to expect hatred (enmity) between Satan and women and between Satan’s children and the “seed of the woman”, i.e. - the Messiah.

 

Gen 3:15  (God speaking to the Serpent/Satan): And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

 

Whether the Bible is corrupted or not, hundreds of years before Mohammed lived the Bible says that the Satan will hate and persecute women in general and the Messiah that comes into the world through a woman. This hatred and persecution will continue until the end of this age.

QUESTION 3 – HOW DID THE WRITERS KNOW THIS TYPE OF PERSECUTION OF WOMEN WOULD ARISE OR CONTINUE?

 
I think I have a fair idea of what you are getting at - but I should like to wait and see if I am correct.

 

QUESTION 4 – WHAT WORLD SYSTEM OR CULTURE COOPERATES MOST WITH THIS AGENDA THAT THE BIBLE ATTRIBUTES TO SATAN?

 
I have an idea that you already have an opinion/answer to that. So why not go ahead and share it with us? Lets just get it all out in the open, shall we? Wink
 
Regards,
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 21 February 2009 at 7:00am

This is why everywhere that Christianity has went in the world and been able to influence a culture or government, the status of women has been elevated and the conditions for women has dramatically improved.
 
Chrysalis wrote:
Interesting point of view. However, it is interesting to note that the treatment of women under Christianity started to improve only after the christians advanced into other countries and cultures, and widened thier perspective. Until that point, saying that christian women were treated well, is incorrect, and somewhat laughable. The Church didnt even believe women had a soul! It took them ages to actually confirm the presence of a woman's soul. But lets not get into examples already. 
 
********
 Chrysalis,

 

Please just take the years of Christianity prior to Mohammed and document your claim with specific facts.

 

I'll give you a few to chew on: 

Infanticide that targeted females was universal in ancient Greece and Rome and was the leading cause of the tremendous gender gap of men to women in the ancient world.  It was very uncommon for even wealthy, upper-class families to have more than one daughter in ancient Greece and Rome.

Whereas Judaism prohibited infanticide by Jews, Christianity was converting pagans and instructing them that infanticide was immoral and murder. The Didache (90 -110 CE), an instruction manual for Christian converts, commanded "You shall not commit infanticide." Another early Christian document, the Epistle of Barnabas (130 CE), also explicitly condemned infanticide and by the end of the second century, Christians were not only proclaiming their rejection of abortion and infanticide, but had begun direct attacks on pagans, and especially pagan religions for sustaining such crimes.

While Christianity was an illegal religion, persecuted by the same culture that murdered their own babies, it had little chance of enacting policies against infanticide. Finally, however, with the Edict of Milan--which legalized the practice of Christianity--Christian leaders began to exert their influence on the Roman emperors regarding infanticide. Immediately after his conversion, Constantine--the first Christian Emperor--enacted two measures that minimized infanticide. The Church continued to pressure Rome for a ban on infanticide and finally Bishop Basil of Caesarea convinced Emperor Valentinian (364-375 CE)--a Christian--to outlaw the practice of infanticide in the Roman

Women’s rights in the known world were nearly non existent until Christians changed the culture and the laws. Women could not vote, make a contract, give testimony in a trial, have a say in marriage, the clothes they wore or any other aspect of life.  It was legal and acceptable for a man to beat and even kill his wife for any reason. In Rome, women did not even have personal names but adopted their father’s name in the feminine form. The burdens and physical abuse imposed on them caused them to die decades before the men around them.

When Christianity appeared women were attracted to it. Within the Christian sub-culture, women held a much higher status than did women throughout the Greco-Roman world. Women were recognized by Christianity as equal to men, children of God with the same supernatural destiny. The Christian prohibition of polygamy, divorce, birth control, abortion and infanticide contributed to the well-being of women substantially, securing them dignity and rights within both Church and state. One effect of this higher status was to increase the number of Christian women, which in turn led to a superior fertility rate for Christians, another factor in the growth of the faith. Christians influenced Constantine and later emperors to enact laws on behalf of women. These laws and attitudes were carried to other lands as Christianity grew.

Apollos

 
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Nazarene
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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 21 February 2009 at 12:05pm
Whether the Bible is corrupted or not, hundreds of years before Mohammed lived the Bible says that the Satan will hate and persecute women in general and the Messiah that comes into the world through a woman. This hatred and persecution will continue until the end of this age.
 
i see you understand the root behind the:
 THE WITCHES HAMMER [ a popular christain book published by the christain church.]
which justified THE BURNING YEARS when the christain church MURDERED SOME SAY AS MANY AS 500,000 WOMEN AND YOUNG GIRLS.{HOW MANY OTHER WOMEN WERE FALSLY CHARGED BY HUSBANDS SEEKING TO RID THEMSELVES OF AN UNWANTED WIFE SINCE DIVORCE WAS FORBIDEN}
FACT!! IN A TOWN IN GERMANY THE CHURCH BURNED 140 WOMEN AND GIRLS ONE AS YOUNG AS 7 YRS. OLD AT ONE TIME!!
 
 ALSO MOST CHRISTAINS I GREWUP WITH HELD TO THESE TWO TEACHINGS
 
1 TIMOTHY
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But womena]'>[a] will be savedb]'>[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
 1 CORN.
34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
 
  NOT ONLY DOES THIS TEACH TO OPPRESS WOMEN, BUT HOLD THE STIGMA OF BLAME OVER HER AS TO SIN. IT'S ALL HER FAULT.
  FURTHER SHE IS ALSO DENIED THE GOD GIVEN RIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE. TO READ FOR HERSELF THE WORD OF GOD.
PEACE
LELAND
 P.S.
 My brother-inlaws MODEL christain marrage is as follows:
     A] she can work but he controls her money.
     B] she has to " ask permition to go-out with friends.{only from the church}
     C] she must wait for him to sit and eat before she can.
     D] she must " speak in turn ".
     F] on matters of faith it's not her place to say since all she needs to know comes from him.
     G] I'M THE MAN YOU CAME FROM ME. THUS NOT BROUGHT FOURTH BY BREATH. SIMPLY A CREATION FROM ME FOR ME. { THIS LENDS TO THE BELIEF OF WOMAN NOT HAVING A SOUL.}
i'm upsetting myself.
peace
 
 


Edited by Nazarene - 21 February 2009 at 7:17pm
love for all conquers all
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 21 February 2009 at 4:54pm
Chrysalis -the "church" may not have thought women had a soul, but Jesus did. 
 
The problem is this verse some say it condones abuse, no commands it if the wife is disobedient.
 
004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
Literal:
The men (are) taking care of matters for livelihood on (for) the women with what God preferred/favoured some of them (men and women) on some, and with what they spent from their (M) properties/possession , so the correct/righteous females are obeying humbly , worshipping humbly, protecting/safekeeping to the invisible with what God protected ; and those whom (F) you fear their (F) quarrel (disobedience) , so advise/warn them (F) and desert/abandon them (F) in the place of lying down (beds), and ignore/disregard/push them (F) , so if they obeyed you, so do not oppress/transgress on them (F) a way/method, that God was/is high, mighty/great.
 
I tell you the majority of the verse in the Quran have been misintepreted, over and over again and put Islam in a pickle.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote Apollos Replybullet Posted: 22 February 2009 at 7:09am
Originally posted by Nazarene

Whether the Bible is corrupted or not, hundreds of years before Mohammed lived the Bible says that the Satan will hate and persecute women in general and the Messiah that comes into the world through a woman. This hatred and persecution will continue until the end of this age.
 
i see you understand the root behind the:
 THE WITCHES HAMMER [ a popular christain book published by the christain church.]
which justified THE BURNING YEARS when the christain church MURDERED SOME SAY AS MANY AS 500,000 WOMEN AND YOUNG GIRLS.{HOW MANY OTHER WOMEN WERE FALSLY CHARGED BY HUSBANDS SEEKING TO RID THEMSELVES OF AN UNWANTED WIFE SINCE DIVORCE WAS FORBIDEN}
FACT!! IN A TOWN IN GERMANY THE CHURCH BURNED 140 WOMEN AND GIRLS ONE AS YOUNG AS 7 YRS. OLD AT ONE TIME!!
 
 ALSO MOST CHRISTAINS I GREWUP WITH HELD TO THESE TWO TEACHINGS
 
1 TIMOTHY
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But womena]'>[a] will be savedb]'>[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
 1 CORN.
34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
 
  NOT ONLY DOES THIS TEACH TO OPPRESS WOMEN, BUT HOLD THE STIGMA OF BLAME OVER HER AS TO SIN. IT'S ALL HER FAULT.
  FURTHER SHE IS ALSO DENIED THE GOD GIVEN RIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE. TO READ FOR HERSELF THE WORD OF GOD.
PEACE
LELAND
 P.S.
 My brother-inlaws MODEL christain marrage is as follows:
     A] she can work but he controls her money.
     B] she has to " ask permition to go-out with friends.{only from the church}
     C] she must wait for him to sit and eat before she can.
     D] she must " speak in turn ".
     F] on matters of faith it's not her place to say since all she needs to know comes from him.
     G] I'M THE MAN YOU CAME FROM ME. THUS NOT BROUGHT FOURTH BY BREATH. SIMPLY A CREATION FROM ME FOR ME. { THIS LENDS TO THE BELIEF OF WOMAN NOT HAVING A SOUL.}
i'm upsetting myself.
peace
  

I agree with you that during the Dark Ages even those who called themselves Christians were diabolical. (That's why this period is called the Dark Ages). And yes there are some current Christians of today who have unBiblical beliefs like your in-laws. (I'll be happy to give you passages to show your in-law if you like). But the basis for me calling these things wrong are the morals that have become part of the Western culture. I argue that the Bible has been instrumental in developing these morals and I think my historical examples support this - at least in the early years.

But - let's say that since beginning of the Dark Ages, and even through now, Christianity has failed to live up to the equality that the Bible says should exist for women. Are you content with how Islam treats women? Are you trying to equate the two? I'm not thinking of how a woman is prohibited from being a priest or pastor in a Christian church but how Muslim women are beaten, deemed inferior under Sharia and overall treated as property.

I raise this issue as a man but I think the ones who can answer this question best are Muslim women who have been able to see how life would be for them in the Western world - and what choice they would make if they had a choice.
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 22 February 2009 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Apollos

 Chrysalis,

 

Please just take the years of Christianity prior to Mohammed and document your claim with specific facts.

 
So you agree that somwhere down the line, Christianity changed and no longer retained its original content? i.e. what Jesus taught initially? Is this why you do not wish to discuss post Muhamamd Christianity?

Women were recognized by Christianity as equal to men,

I find a lot of your 'facts' rather vague and well, doubtful. Any references?
 
Women recognized by Christiany as equal to men? How so? Christianty didnt think women even had souls!!! (this is before Muhammad sw's time) And that woman was created to serve Man? They couldnt be ministers. . . or preachers. . . .or hold any important positions.
 
Btw, are references from the Bible relevant in this discussion?
 
 The Christian prohibition of polygamy, divorce, birth control, abortion and infanticide contributed to the well-being of women
 
How so? How do the above prohibitions contribute to the well bieng of a woman? I can put forward my views later.
 
 
[substantially, securing them dignity and rights within both Church and state.
 
How? In what way?
 
One effect of this higher status was to increase the number of Christian women, which in turn led to a superior fertility rate for Christians, another factor in the growth of the faith. Christians influenced Constantine and later emperors to enact laws on behalf of women. These laws and attitudes were carried to other lands as Christianity grew.
 
This seems more like a vague essay rather than facts. What does the superiour fertility rate of Christians have anything to do with 'elevation of women' ?
 
What laws? It would be helpful if you could be clearer.
 

 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 22 February 2009 at 10:20am
Originally posted by believer

Chrysalis -the "church" may not have thought women had a soul, but Jesus did. 
 
I see. Thankyou for clarifying that. So the Church was basically teaching things that Jesus never did? Do you agree?
 
 
You yourself agree that only 'some' say it condones abuse.
 
Incase you need a reaffirmation - no this verse does not 'command' abuse.
 
It tackles the issue of domestic violence, by dealing with it. Anger and Quarrels are a reality - and actions of both spouses fall into 2 categories, those that are an offence, and those that are not as serious. Allah tells the muslim husband, that incase of quarrels, before getting rash - he needs to take a number of steps to solve the issue: 1. admonish 2.dont share the bed - and if things get out of control - only beat lightly. Prophet Muhammad explained this by setting further limits, i.e cannot hit with anything bigger than a toothstick, cannot hit on face/sensitive parts, cannot leave a mark. (Also, the verse refers to disloyalty, which is often interpreted as fornication/adultery/openly unislamic acts. )
 
So basically, under Islamic Rule, which uses Qur'an and Sunnah to make laws - if a man hits his wife. . . unless he keeps within the above restrictions - he can be prosecuted for abuse, and the wife can be granted a divorce. (i.e if he hasnt taken concilatory steps as mentioned, or he hit her on the face/sensitive parts, or he left a mark, or he hit her with something bigger than a toothstick, or he had no significant reason, the strike wasnt 'light') This is what defines 'domestic abuse'.
 
I tell you the majority of the verse in the Quran have been misintepreted,  
 
Agreed.
 
Hmmm. So are we playing a 'blame game' here? I couldnt help but think that, since u quickly posted verses from the Quran in response to allegations against Christianity! If so, we could go on and on without any point. You dont have any input on what Apollos or what Nazarene said? You dont have anything to share on how Christianity 'elevates' women? Badmouthing Islam does not automatically give Christianity a point in the 'Women Rights' coloumn! You have to substantiate that with facts. . .
 


Edited by Chrysalis - 22 February 2009 at 10:21am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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