IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Where Islam & Christian Agree and Differ

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JOUBERAR

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Posted: 31 March 2009 at 1:08pm

Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah

Originally posted by _ALI_

Salam JOUBERAR

If Jesus was only if prophet as quran stated it then he also could have sinned like all the other prophets

Unlike Christianity, in Islam, the prophets do not knowingly commit sins. They may commit small mistake like Jonah did but they are then immediately corrected by God.

why then call him the messiah or wait for his second coming if was only a prophet.

A messiah does not mean a person who is sinless. It only means a deliverer. And like I said, all prophets including Jesus Christ did not knowingly commit sins. And for a second coming, you don't have to be a god. You can be a prophet and come back if God wills. And he will come back to defeat Dajjal (antiChrist) and to correct the Christians. As the Bible says

Mathew 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Peace

If the messiah is only a deliverer then why couldn't God just gave the job just to Muhammad and why have Dajjal got his own heaven and his own hell if God is the only one that have got the one and only heaven and he the only one that got the power to through someone in to hell.

This Dajjal story seems to me to like six century Arab caravan camp fire story.

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Nur_Ilahi

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Posted: 31 March 2009 at 9:56pm

Originally posted by Eaisha

I have always looked at the "sacrifice" or "death" of Jesus (Isa) as, unfortunately, a pagan ritual carried over from many other empires: Greek, Roman, etc. All HAD TO sacrifice a human being.

It's strange, before becoming a Muslim, I always thought the Messiah was exonerated or saved at the last moment by the hand of God - - - something like the rescue of Isaac (Christian) or Ismael (Islam) from the hand of Abraham (Ibrahim).

Jesus suffered persecution....true....but he was not crucified to death but miraculously saved or raised up just in time.

Assalamualaikum Eaisha.

In tasawwuf - Purification of Human Souls - or sufism, when one reached the 7th stage of purity of the souls, everything is possible. The Spirit or Souls becomes so strong, that it overcomes the physical body. It kind of seeps thru the physical body and envelopes it thoroughly. Therefore one can make oneself appear and disappear anytime. However these are for human beings who had succeeded in their self jihad like Prophets and waliyullahs. This path is very very difficult but it is not impossible. When one has reached this stage, one will know the secrets of secrets and reality of existence.

That was what happened to Jesus who was called up to Allah and also the Isra' Miraj that happened to our dear beloved Prophet Muhammad Rasulullah.

I would like to relate a story of a sufi in early Islamic years. He was sewing his torn clothes near a river. Then came a man from his village asking him why he chose this path (sufism) when he was a wealthy man. Then his needle dropped into the river. The AhlusSufi called up the needle up, there were a few needles appearing at his command. The Sufi said, I only want my one that dropped earlier. The Sufi then told his villageman, that this was what he wanted, having the secrets of secrets, to be one with the ONE.

Salam....

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

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JOUBERAR

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Posted: 01 April 2009 at 4:31pm

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Good point Hayfa.

I have stated on numerous threads over and over, where was the sacrifice? If Jesus were God, then he sacrificed nothing. Nothing could really hurt him, he didn't really die, and after his little sojourn to earth he immediately returned to heaven. If Jesus were a man and could actually die with no hope of resurrection or being "god" again, and allowed himself to be killed, actually gave up his one and only life, then THAT would have been a sacrifice.

Aunty you said you were a Christian before have you realy then at that time loved God with your whole heart and sole have you really put in a big effort to be a Christian or were your live only a one hour or a two hour a week Christian,then you step over to the Muslims and you practice Islam now full time.

Why did Jesus say all this words then.

I Am the bread of live

I Am the Light of the World
I Am the Door
I Am the Good Shepherd
I Am the Resurrection and the Life
I Am the Way
I am the Vine

I Am the Bread of Life

John 6:35 Jesus replied: “I am the bread that gives life! No one who comes to me will ever be hungry. No one who has faith in me will ever be thirsty

Jesus is God’s answer to man’s death (The Bread of Life).

Jesus is God’s answer to man’s hunger (will never be hungry).

Jesus is God’s answer to man’s thirst (will never be thirsty).

I Am the Light of the World

John 8:12   Once again Jesus spoke to the people. This time he said, "I am the light for the world! Follow me, and you won't be walking in the dark. You will have the light that gives life."

I Am the Door

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.”

I Am the Good Shepherd

John 10:14   “I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep, and they know me.”

I Am the Resurrection and the Life

John 11:25   Jesus said unto her, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believe th in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.”

I Am the Way
John 14:6   Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

I am the Vine
John 15:1   "I am the true vine, and my Father is the Gardner."

Why did Jesus said that he is the true vine, He said all this above words why then if it is like he said why will God then send a substitute to demolish all his protocols.

Why haven't Muhammad said any of this.

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Mansoor_ali
Male Islam
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Joined: 25 September 2008
Location: Pakistan
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Posted: 02 April 2009 at 12:04am

Originally posted by JOUBERAR

Aunty you said you were a Christian before have you realy then at that time loved God with your whole heart and sole have you really put in a big effort to be a Christian or were your live only a one hour or a two hour a week Christian,then you step over to the Muslims and you practice Islam now full time.

Why did Jesus say all this words then.

I Am the bread of live

I Am the Light of the World
I Am the Door
I Am the Good Shepherd
I Am the Resurrection and the Life
I Am the Way
I am the Vine

I Am the Bread of Life

John 6:35 Jesus replied: “I am the bread that gives life! No one who comes to me will ever be hungry. No one who has faith in me will ever be thirsty

               Jesus is God’s answer to man’s death (The Bread of Life).

    Jesus is God’s answer to man’s hunger (will never be hungry).

          Jesus is God’s answer to man’s thirst (will never be thirsty).

I Am the Light of the World

John 8:12   Once again Jesus spoke to the people. This time he said, I am the light for the world! Follow me, and you won't be walking in the dark. You will have the light that gives life.

I Am the Door

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.”

I Am the Good Shepherd

John 10:14   “I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep, and they know me.”

I Am the Resurrection and the Life

John 11:25   Jesus said unto her, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believe th in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.”

I Am the Way
John 14:6   Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I am the Vine
John 15:1   I am the true vine, and my Father is the Gardner.

Why did Jesus said that he is the true vine, He said all this above words why then if it is like he said why will God then send a substitute to demolish all his protocols.

Why haven't Muhammad said any of this.
[/QUOTE

How do you know that Jesus Christ said above these things?

The real Bible: Who's got it?

How do you know that Jesus Christ said above these things?

The real Bible: Who's got it?

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Akhe Abdullah
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Posted: 05 April 2009 at 10:21am

Salams,Where Islam and Christianity agree and differ.Matthew 6: Take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be seen of them:otherwise ye have no reward of your father which is in heaven.(Gideons)These words I quoted are word for word,not mine and yes they clearly have words missing now granted this could just be the book that I have but still the same not my words.So I had to formulate the meaning to be:Take heed that ye do not (take)or (Pay) your alms before men to be seen of them.We can agree on this.Your father which is in heaven.We differ your meaning of heavenly father.

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Akhe Abdullah
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Posted: 05 April 2009 at 10:29am

As Salamu Alaikum Brother Mansoor Ali.Jazakallah Kheiran for the link [IMG]smileys/smiley32.gif" align="middle" /> May Allah Bless you.

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 05 April 2009 at 10:29am

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believer

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Posts: 1397

Posted: 06 April 2009 at 1:13pm

Suffering beatings, dying a physical death on a cross and spending time preaching to the souls in hell even though you are sinless is a big enough sacrifice for me!

Muslims are putting their own rules of what you believe is a worthy sacrifice from GOD?!

Why the need for a sacrifice- You are driving along and run into another car and damage it. You apologize like crazy and then drive away. The other driver says ok I forgive you, but the car is still damamged. Where is the compensation for the damage?

GOD is holy and righteous and since our sin does damage a payment is needed to compensate.

In Old Testament times a perfect animal was sacrificed. Even Muslims carry out this ritual sacrifice even though they have no idea why, they have forgotten!!

You forget that Jesus willingly gave His life for us.

Since we were all originally muslim and sacrificed since earliest times [remember the story of Abraham] did you ever think that the pagan sacrifices were a carry over from that original time.

In the Quran what was the momentous, tremendous sacrifice from GOD that save Abraham's son? A ram?

mansoor ali - according to your Quran we have the real Gospel!

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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hat2010

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Location: Neutral Zone
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Posts: 562

Posted: 06 April 2009 at 4:52pm

Originally posted by believer

In Old Testament times a perfect animal was sacrificed. Even Muslims carry out this ritual sacrifice even though they have no idea why, they have forgotten!!

Whether intended as defamatory or it is just uninformed, the above is just Wrong.

The below wiki-entry is entirely consonant with my understanding every brother that I have personally sacrificed alongside of during the Eid or other times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice

On the occasion of Eid ul Adhaa, affluent Muslims all over the world perform the Sunnah of Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) by sacrificing a goat or sheep. The meat is then divided into three equal parts. One part is retained by the person who performs the Qurbani. The second is given to his relatives. The third part is distributed to the poor. The Muslims say that this has nothing to do with blood and gore (Qur'an 22:37: "It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches God. It is your piety that reaches Him..."). The sacrifice is done to help the poor and in remembrance of Prophet Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son Ishmael at God's command. The sacrificial animal may be a lamb, a sheep, a goat, a camel or a cow. The animal must be healthy and conscious.

p.s The Lamb of God stuff, when it doesn't evoke puzzlement, usually evokes a bit of unintended comedy in these parts, though my missionary friends still believe it's because they are denied a better stage to proselytise from. Nietzsche, (paradoxically, this atheist philosopher is quite popular in Muslim North West Africa) put it succinctly:

There can be no doubt: first of all against the "debtor," in whom from this point on bad conscience, firmly set in him, eating into him and spreading out like a polyp, grows wide and deep, until finally, with the impossibility of discharging the debt, people think up the idea of the impossibility of removing the penance, the idea that the debt cannot be paid off ("eternal punishment"). Finally however, those ideas of "debt" and "duty" turn back even against the "creditor." ... [A]ll of a sudden we confront the paradoxical and horrifying expedient with which a martyred humanity found temporary relief, that stroke of genius of Christianity - God's sacrifice of himself for the guilt of human beings, God paying himself back with himself, God as the only one who can redeem man from what for human beings has become impossible to redeem - the creditor sacrifices himself for the debtor, out of love (can people believe that?), out of love for his debtor! ... [Genealogy of Morality, Section 21]

Edited by Jamal Morelli - 09 April 2009 at 8:40am

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Topic: Where Islam & Christian Agree and Differ( Topic Closed)
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Author	Message
JOUBERAR Guest Group Joined: 13 March 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 573	Posted: 31 March 2009 at 1:08pm
	*Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah* *Originally posted by _ALI_* Salam JOUBERAR If Jesus was only if prophet as quran stated it then he also could have sinned like all the other prophets Unlike Christianity, in Islam, the prophets do not knowingly commit sins. They may commit small mistake like Jonah did but they are then immediately corrected by God. why then call him the messiah or wait for his second coming if was only a prophet. A messiah does not mean a person who is sinless. It only means a deliverer. And like I said, all prophets including Jesus Christ did not knowingly commit sins. And for a second coming, you don't have to be a god. You can be a prophet and come back if God wills. And he will come back to defeat Dajjal (antiChrist) and to correct the Christians. As the Bible says Mathew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Peace If the messiah is only a deliverer then why couldn't God just gave the job just to Muhammad and why have Dajjal got his own heaven and his own hell if God is the only one that have got the one and only heaven and he the only one that got the power to through someone in to hell. This Dajjal story seems to me to like six century Arab caravan camp fire story.
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Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 31 March 2009 at 9:56pm
	*Originally posted by Eaisha* I have always looked at the "sacrifice" or "death" of Jesus (Isa) as, unfortunately, a pagan ritual carried over from many other empires: Greek, Roman, etc. All HAD TO sacrifice a human being. It's strange, before becoming a Muslim, I always thought the Messiah was exonerated or saved at the last moment by the hand of God - - - something like the rescue of Isaac (Christian) or Ismael (Islam) from the hand of Abraham (Ibrahim). Jesus suffered persecution....true....but he was not crucified to death but miraculously saved or raised up just in time. Assalamualaikum Eaisha. In tasawwuf - Purification of Human Souls - or sufism, when one reached the 7th stage of purity of the souls, everything is possible. The Spirit or Souls becomes so strong, that it overcomes the physical body. It kind of seeps thru the physical body and envelopes it thoroughly. Therefore one can make oneself appear and disappear anytime. However these are for human beings who had succeeded in their self jihad like Prophets and waliyullahs. This path is very very difficult but it is not impossible. When one has reached this stage, one will know the secrets of secrets and reality of existence. That was what happened to Jesus who was called up to Allah and also the Isra' Miraj that happened to our dear beloved Prophet Muhammad Rasulullah. I would like to relate a story of a sufi in early Islamic years. He was sewing his torn clothes near a river. Then came a man from his village asking him why he chose this path (sufism) when he was a wealthy man. Then his needle dropped into the river. The AhlusSufi called up the needle up, there were a few needles appearing at his command. The Sufi said, I only want my one that dropped earlier. The Sufi then told his villageman, that this was what he wanted, having the secrets of secrets, to be one with the ONE. Salam....
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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JOUBERAR Guest Group Joined: 13 March 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 573	Posted: 01 April 2009 at 4:31pm
	*Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt* Good point Hayfa. I have stated on numerous threads over and over, where was the sacrifice? If Jesus were God, then he sacrificed nothing. Nothing could really hurt him, he didn't really die, and after his little sojourn to earth he immediately returned to heaven. If Jesus were a man and could actually die with no hope of resurrection or being "god" again, and allowed himself to be killed, actually gave up his one and only life, then THAT would have been a sacrifice. Aunty you said you were a Christian before have you realy then at that time loved God with your whole heart and sole have you really put in a big effort to be a Christian or were your live only a one hour or a two hour a week Christian,then you step over to the Muslims and you practice Islam now full time. Why did Jesus say all this words then. I Am the bread of live I Am the Light of the World I Am the Door I Am the Good Shepherd I Am the Resurrection and the Life I Am the Way I am the Vine I Am the Bread of Life John 6:35 Jesus replied: “I am the bread that gives life! No one who comes to me will ever be hungry. No one who has faith in me will ever be thirsty Jesus is God’s answer to man’s death (The Bread of Life). Jesus is God’s answer to man’s hunger (will never be hungry). Jesus is God’s answer to man’s thirst (will never be thirsty). I Am the Light of the World John 8:12 Once again Jesus spoke to the people. This time he said, "I am the light for the world! Follow me, and you won't be walking in the dark. You will have the light that gives life." I Am the Door John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.” I Am the Good Shepherd John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep, and they know me.” I Am the Resurrection and the Life John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believe th in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.” I Am the Way John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I am the Vine John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the Gardner." Why did Jesus said that he is the true vine, He said all this above words why then if it is like he said why will God then send a substitute to demolish all his protocols. Why haven't Muhammad said any of this.
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Mansoor_ali Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 582	Posted: 02 April 2009 at 12:04am
	Originally posted by JOUBERAR Aunty you said you were a Christian before have you realy then at that time loved God with your whole heart and sole have you really put in a big effort to be a Christian or were your live only a one hour or a two hour a week Christian,then you step over to the Muslims and you practice Islam now full time. Why did Jesus say all this words then. I Am the bread of live I Am the Light of the World I Am the Door I Am the Good Shepherd I Am the Resurrection and the Life I Am the Way I am the Vine I Am the Bread of Life John 6:35 Jesus replied: “I am the bread that gives life! No one who comes to me will ever be hungry. No one who has faith in me will ever be thirsty Jesus is God’s answer to man’s death (The Bread of Life). Jesus is God’s answer to man’s hunger (will never be hungry). Jesus is God’s answer to man’s thirst (will never be thirsty). I Am the Light of the World John 8:12 Once again Jesus spoke to the people. This time he said, I am the light for the world! Follow me, and you won't be walking in the dark. You will have the light that gives life. I Am the Door John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.” I Am the Good Shepherd John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep, and they know me.” I Am the Resurrection and the Life John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believe th in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.” I Am the Way John 14:6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. I am the Vine John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the Gardner. Why did Jesus said that he is the true vine, He said all this above words why then if it is like he said why will God then send a substitute to demolish all his protocols. Why haven't Muhammad said any of this. [/QUOTE How do you know that Jesus Christ said above these things? The real Bible: Who's got it? How do you know that Jesus Christ said above these things? The real Bible: Who's got it?
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Akhe Abdullah Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1252	Posted: 05 April 2009 at 10:21am
	Salams,Where Islam and Christianity agree and differ.Matthew 6: Take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be seen of them:otherwise ye have no reward of your father which is in heaven.(Gideons)These words I quoted are word for word,not mine and yes they clearly have words missing now granted this could just be the book that I have but still the same not my words.So I had to formulate the meaning to be:Take heed that ye do not (take)or (Pay) your alms before men to be seen of them.We can agree on this.Your father which is in heaven.We differ your meaning of heavenly father.
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Akhe Abdullah Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1252	Posted: 05 April 2009 at 10:29am
	As Salamu Alaikum Brother Mansoor Ali.Jazakallah Kheiran for the link [IMG]smileys/smiley32.gif" align="middle" /> May Allah Bless you. Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 05 April 2009 at 10:29am
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believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 06 April 2009 at 1:13pm
	Suffering beatings, dying a physical death on a cross and spending time preaching to the souls in hell even though you are sinless is a big enough sacrifice for me! Muslims are putting their own rules of what you believe is a worthy sacrifice from GOD?! Why the need for a sacrifice- You are driving along and run into another car and damage it. You apologize like crazy and then drive away. The other driver says ok I forgive you, but the car is still damamged. Where is the compensation for the damage? GOD is holy and righteous and since our sin does damage a payment is needed to compensate. In Old Testament times a perfect animal was sacrificed. Even Muslims carry out this ritual sacrifice even though they have no idea why, they have forgotten!! You forget that Jesus willingly gave His life for us. Since we were all originally muslim and sacrificed since earliest times [remember the story of Abraham] did you ever think that the pagan sacrifices were a carry over from that original time. In the Quran what was the momentous, tremendous sacrifice from GOD that save Abraham's son? A ram? mansoor ali - according to your Quran we have the real Gospel!
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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hat2010 Senior Member Joined: 10 October 2006 Location: Neutral Zone Online Status: Offline Posts: 562	Posted: 06 April 2009 at 4:52pm
	*Originally posted by believer* In Old Testament times a perfect animal was sacrificed. Even Muslims carry out this ritual sacrifice even though they have no idea why, they have forgotten!! Whether intended as defamatory or it is just uninformed, the above is just Wrong. The below wiki-entry is entirely consonant with my understanding every brother that I have personally sacrificed alongside of during the Eid or other times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice On the occasion of Eid ul Adhaa, affluent Muslims all over the world perform the Sunnah of Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) by sacrificing a goat or sheep. The meat is then divided into three equal parts. One part is retained by the person who performs the Qurbani. The second is given to his relatives. The third part is distributed to the poor. The Muslims say that this has nothing to do with blood and gore (Qur'an 22:37: "It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches God. It is your piety that reaches Him..."). The sacrifice is done to help the poor and in remembrance of Prophet Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son Ishmael at God's command. The sacrificial animal may be a lamb, a sheep, a goat, a camel or a cow. The animal must be healthy and conscious. p.s The Lamb of God stuff, when it doesn't evoke puzzlement, usually evokes a bit of unintended comedy in these parts, though my missionary friends still believe it's because they are denied a better stage to proselytise from. Nietzsche, (paradoxically, this atheist philosopher is quite popular in Muslim North West Africa) put it succinctly: There can be no doubt: first of all against the "debtor," in whom from this point on bad conscience, firmly set in him, eating into him and spreading out like a polyp, grows wide and deep, until finally, with the impossibility of discharging the debt, people think up the idea of the impossibility of removing the penance, the idea that the debt cannot be paid off ("eternal punishment"). Finally however, those ideas of "debt" and "duty" turn back even against the "creditor." ... [A]ll of a sudden we confront the paradoxical and horrifying expedient with which a martyred humanity found temporary relief, that stroke of genius of Christianity - God's sacrifice of himself for the guilt of human beings, God paying himself back with himself, God as the only one who can redeem man from what for human beings has become impossible to redeem - the creditor sacrifices himself for the debtor, out of love (can people believe that?), out of love for his debtor! ... [Genealogy of Morality, Section 21] Edited by Jamal Morelli - 09 April 2009 at 8:40am
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