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Akhe Abdullah
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Posted: 24 March 2009 at 12:27pm

Salams, Believer make sense out of this even though it clearly says what it means:John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell his followers:"I ascend unto my Father and your Father;and to my God and your God". Jesus' reference to God as "my Father and your Father"further emphasized the distiction between himself and God.Furthermore,by referring to God as "his God",he left no room for anyone to intelligently claim that he was God.

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 24 March 2009 at 12:28pm

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believer

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Posted: 26 March 2009 at 12:27pm

Akhe- I find it interesting thqt you are using verses right after those speaking of Jesus rising from the tomb after His crucifixion.

John 10

²⁵Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, ²⁶but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. ²⁷My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. ²⁸I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. ²⁹My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. ³⁰I and the Father are one."

I don't know how GOD did it but Jesus is fully human and fully divine. Did you know that some early Christians- gnostic sects believed that Jesus' body was an illusion and that He was fully divine.

Think of it this way- each of us is "creator", "father" of our own words, but we are human and our words very often lead us into trouble!!

Our loving GOD used His words to make Laws for us so we could be close to Him. GOD is righteous and we can not be close to Him if we don't follow His Laws. GOD gave us a free will because He wants us to choose Him and follow His Laws, but none of us can follow those Laws because we are human.

GOD castes His Holy words to Mary to become a living Human example for us in Jesus. Knowing that we could never live up to the Laws He sacrificed His WORD, SON, Manifestation, for us as a gift of grace.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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Hayfa
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Posted: 26 March 2009 at 1:53pm

But really Believer you get into this 'sacrifice' idea..

Where is Jesus now? Let's assume he is in Heaven... where the 'sacrifice?' This life is really an illusion the next life is the one that is eternal/

So is this idea of 'sacrifice' is a bit odd if you think about it. If I sacrifice my time so that i do X, it is gone forever. I give up something.. how is Jesus a 'sacrifice' when he is where is always was and should be. What did God actually 'give up?'

Are you not giving human attributes to God who is as you would agree beyond we humans.

And I am reading a book on the Bible by Karen Armstrong.. and it SEEMS to me that IF Jesus had been God more information would have been concrete about his life. If you read how things WERE altered.. then how does the concrete mission of Jesus remain true?

I am no way would ever say that Jesus was not a pious follower on God. But reading Anything about what happens after his time, it puts men in charge. Which is really a false reality.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

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Shasta'sAunt
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Posted: 26 March 2009 at 8:19pm

Good point Hayfa.

I have stated on numerous threads over and over, where was the sacrifice? If Jesus were God, then he sacrificed nothing. Nothing could really hurt him, he didn't really die, and after his little sojourn to earth he immediately returned to heaven. If Jesus were a man and could actually die with no hope of resurrection or being "god" again, and allowed himself to be killed, actually gave up his one and only life, then THAT would have been a sacrifice.

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Akhe Abdullah
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Posted: 26 March 2009 at 8:19pm

Originally posted by believer

Akhe- I find it interesting thqt you are using verses right after those speaking of Jesus rising from the tomb after His crucifixion.

John 10

I don't know how GOD did it but Jesus is fully human and fully divine. Did you know that some early Christians- gnostic sects believed that Jesus' body was an illusion and that He was fully divine.

Think of it this way- each of us is "creator", "father" of our own words, but we are human and our words very often lead us into trouble!!

Salams, Believer. Is that Jesus(As) like?And furthermore lets look deeper into this sacrifice theory,Why was it a need for this so-called sacrifice?Could it be because the people started to worship Jesus(As)as a god when he clearly, over and over told them not to,he even said dont call him good,because he owned no attributes in which they were giving him,except as a messenger.

Edited by icforumadmin - 26 March 2009 at 9:35pm

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Akhe Abdullah
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Posted: 26 March 2009 at 8:39pm

Originally posted by believer

Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, ²⁶but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. ²⁷My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

I wonder if you realize that you are affirming that Jesus had no power except by the Will of Allah.

My sheep meaning that he was a sheperd of men,a learder of men,and so was Adam(As)Nohah(As)Moses(As)Abraham(As)and lastly Muhammed(SAW).

Edited by icforumadmin - 26 March 2009 at 9:32pm

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Eaisha
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Posted: 27 March 2009 at 3:05pm

I have always looked at the "sacrifice" or "death" of Jesus (Isa) as, unfortunately, a pagan ritual carried over from many other empires: Greek, Roman, etc. All HAD TO sacrifice a human being.

It's strange, before becoming a Muslim, I always thought the Messiah was exonerated or saved at the last moment by the hand of God - - - something like the rescue of Isaac (Christian) or Ismael (Islam) from the hand of Abraham (Ibrahim).

Jesus suffered persecution....true....but he was not crucified to death but miraculously saved or raised up just in time.

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honeto

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Posted: 30 March 2009 at 12:43pm

Well said Akhe Abdullah and Eaisha, so simple and so true.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 30 March 2009 at 12:43pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Topic: Where Islam & Christian Agree and Differ( Topic Closed)
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Author	Message
Akhe Abdullah Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1252	Posted: 24 March 2009 at 12:27pm
	Salams, Believer make sense out of this even though it clearly says what it means:John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell his followers:"I ascend unto my Father and your Father;and to my God and your God". Jesus' reference to God as "my Father and your Father"further emphasized the distiction between himself and God.Furthermore,by referring to God as "his God",he left no room for anyone to intelligently claim that he was God. Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 24 March 2009 at 12:28pm
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believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 26 March 2009 at 12:27pm
	Akhe- I find it interesting thqt you are using verses right after those speaking of Jesus rising from the tomb after His crucifixion. John 10 ²⁵Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, ²⁶but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. ²⁷My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. ²⁸I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. ²⁹My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. ³⁰I and the Father are one." I don't know how GOD did it but Jesus is fully human and fully divine. Did you know that some early Christians- gnostic sects believed that Jesus' body was an illusion and that He was fully divine. Think of it this way- each of us is "creator", "father" of our own words, but we are human and our words very often lead us into trouble!! Our loving GOD used His words to make Laws for us so we could be close to Him. GOD is righteous and we can not be close to Him if we don't follow His Laws. GOD gave us a free will because He wants us to choose Him and follow His Laws, but none of us can follow those Laws because we are human. GOD castes His Holy words to Mary to become a living Human example for us in Jesus. Knowing that we could never live up to the Laws He sacrificed His WORD, SON, Manifestation, for us as a gift of grace.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Hayfa Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2370	Posted: 26 March 2009 at 1:53pm
	But really Believer you get into this 'sacrifice' idea.. Where is Jesus now? Let's assume he is in Heaven... where the 'sacrifice?' This life is really an illusion the next life is the one that is eternal/ So is this idea of 'sacrifice' is a bit odd if you think about it. If I sacrifice my time so that i do X, it is gone forever. I give up something.. how is Jesus a 'sacrifice' when he is where is always was and should be. What did God actually 'give up?' Are you not giving human attributes to God who is as you would agree beyond we humans. And I am reading a book on the Bible by Karen Armstrong.. and it SEEMS to me that IF Jesus had been God more information would have been concrete about his life. If you read how things WERE altered.. then how does the concrete mission of Jesus remain true? I am no way would ever say that Jesus was not a pious follower on God. But reading Anything about what happens after his time, it puts men in charge. Which is really a false reality.
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
	IP Logged

Shasta'sAunt Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1930	Posted: 26 March 2009 at 8:19pm
	Good point Hayfa. I have stated on numerous threads over and over, where was the sacrifice? If Jesus were God, then he sacrificed nothing. Nothing could really hurt him, he didn't really die, and after his little sojourn to earth he immediately returned to heaven. If Jesus were a man and could actually die with no hope of resurrection or being "god" again, and allowed himself to be killed, actually gave up his one and only life, then THAT would have been a sacrifice.
	“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
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Akhe Abdullah Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1252	Posted: 26 March 2009 at 8:19pm
	*Originally posted by believer* Akhe- I find it interesting thqt you are using verses right after those speaking of Jesus rising from the tomb after His crucifixion. John 10 ²⁵Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, ²⁶but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. ²⁷My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. ²⁸I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. ²⁹My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. ³⁰I and the Father are one." I don't know how GOD did it but Jesus is fully human and fully divine. Did you know that some early Christians- gnostic sects believed that Jesus' body was an illusion and that He was fully divine. Think of it this way- each of us is "creator", "father" of our own words, but we are human and our words very often lead us into trouble!! Our loving GOD used His words to make Laws for us so we could be close to Him. GOD is righteous and we can not be close to Him if we don't follow His Laws. GOD gave us a free will because He wants us to choose Him and follow His Laws, but none of us can follow those Laws because we are human. GOD castes His Holy words to Mary to become a living Human example for us in Jesus. Knowing that we could never live up to the Laws He sacrificed His WORD, SON, Manifestation, for us as a gift of grace. Salams, Believer. Is that Jesus(As) like?And furthermore lets look deeper into this sacrifice theory,Why was it a need for this so-called sacrifice?Could it be because the people started to worship Jesus(As)as a god when he clearly, over and over told them not to,he even said dont call him good,because he owned no attributes in which they were giving him,except as a messenger. Edited by icforumadmin - 26 March 2009 at 9:35pm
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Akhe Abdullah Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1252	Posted: 26 March 2009 at 8:39pm
	*Originally posted by believer* Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, ²⁶but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. ²⁷My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I wonder if you realize that you are affirming that Jesus had no power except by the Will of Allah. My sheep meaning that he was a sheperd of men,a learder of men,and so was Adam(As)Nohah(As)Moses(As)Abraham(As)and lastly Muhammed(SAW). Edited by icforumadmin - 26 March 2009 at 9:32pm
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Eaisha Female Starter Joined: 06 March 2009 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 9	Posted: 27 March 2009 at 3:05pm
	I have always looked at the "sacrifice" or "death" of Jesus (Isa) as, unfortunately, a pagan ritual carried over from many other empires: Greek, Roman, etc. All HAD TO sacrifice a human being. It's strange, before becoming a Muslim, I always thought the Messiah was exonerated or saved at the last moment by the hand of God - - - something like the rescue of Isaac (Christian) or Ismael (Islam) from the hand of Abraham (Ibrahim). Jesus suffered persecution....true....but he was not crucified to death but miraculously saved or raised up just in time.
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 30 March 2009 at 12:43pm
	Well said Akhe Abdullah and Eaisha, so simple and so true. Hasan Edited by honeto - 30 March 2009 at 12:43pm
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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