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Lameese
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Posted: 12 July 2005 at 1:53am

Originally posted by MOCKBA

Bismillah

Government that is first and foremost obedient to God's commands is better... the rest is dirty and bloodstained politics.

You mean like the Saud's in KSA? That kind of government? Or were you talking about Jordan's government? Where is that kind of government again? Where is this government that "is first and foremost obedient to God's commands"? Maybe the UAE? Which one does not have a Royal Family? Where is that again?

...................

Lameese

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herjihad

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Posted: 12 July 2005 at 4:27am

Bismillah,

Sophie,

Thank you for your post. It was the most cogent post on the topic. We will pray for all of those hurt in bombings.

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.

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MOCKBA

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Posted: 12 July 2005 at 4:36am

Lameese, unfortunately such government does not exist in establishment today. This however does not give Muslims a discouraging thought that it is not achievable. Until people do not make effort to establish obedience to the Law of the Almighty as their primary goal, there will be no success in this world...

b25000, governing system of a tribe of small indigenous people in remote Amazonia is more superior in RESULTS than your filthy "democracy". Democracy that proclaims its fight against corruption, while having corrupted non other but religion... and to the extent that Satan himself will soon embrace it to the applause of gay bishops and paedophile parishioners. And this is why this "democracy" is not comfortable sharind this world with neighbours that are trying to establish obedience to God.

MOCKBA

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ummziba
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Posted: 12 July 2005 at 5:50am

Assalamu alaikum,

Take, for example, the "democracy" in Canada. This democractic government has gone with the wishes of the majority of the people and voted "same sex marriage" into law. When the majority wants, and votes for something evil, it is not good for anyone.

We cannot expect that in a majority Muslim country that a democracy would work any better. Look at the example of Turkey, where Muslimahs are not allowed to wear hijab in government buildings or schools. When the majority of people do not follow the laws of Allah, democracy works against us all.

Brother Mockba, you are so right when you say: "Until people do not make effort to establish obedience to the law of the Almighty as their primary goal, there will be no success in this world..."

Peace, ummziba.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~

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b95000

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Posted: 12 July 2005 at 12:20pm

This point was made somewhere here before, and I received much grief for it, but, I feel a need to reiterate. Democracy is not compatible with Islam in the sense that in a democracy the majority vote wins. If the majority vote for something that is against the laws of Allah, this is not good for Islam or Muslims."

We cannot expect that in a majority Muslim country that a democracy would work any better. Look at the example of Turkey, where Muslimahs are not allowed to wear hijab in government buildings or schools. When the majority of people do not follow the laws of Allah, democracy works against us all.

It's not simply about what's good for Islam. The world is made up of 6 billion plus people only somewhat over 1 billion are Muslim and there are something like 1.5 billion Christians. How in the world will you relate to the rest of the world if your only consideration is what is good for Islam? Isn't this what has gotten us into this conundrum? We MUST learn to relate to each other or Muslims had best separate themselves from the rest of the world...is that what you really want or advocate? Separation, removal from all the benefits of other societies and cultures? What a shame if that's true..

Brother Mockba, you are so right when you say: "Until people do not make effort to establish obedience to the law of the Almighty as their primary goal, there will be no success in this world..."

"there will be no success in this world..." Again, such an monolithic view of the world is not practicable - do you really think? Such disrespect, outright disdain it appears, for non-Muslims, is troubling to me to say the least...is this really the way Muslims are - disdainful and disrespectful of other cultures and faiths...I guess I'd grown up differently, hearing differently...

What say you?

Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

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b95000

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Posted: 12 July 2005 at 12:35pm

Originally posted by Lameese

Originally posted by MOCKBA

Government that is first and foremost obedient to God's commands is better... the rest is dirty and bloodstained politics.

...................

Lameese

Originally posted by MOCKBA

Fine - we can do comparative studies if you wish. But how do you come off saying democracy is 'filthy'? What experience do you have with it to make such claims?

Further, you can point to NO examples of a successful government that is conducted 'first and foremost obedient to God's commands' (I take it you mean only by the precepts of Allah, Mohammed and the Qur'an) - so what planet are you living on...it certainly doesn't appear to be Planet Earth.

I am only saying that a flawed democracy is the worst form of government, except for all rest...(Winston Churchill). Since you cannot point to any government operating 'first and foremost obedient to God's commands' then what would you advocate in the meantime - between now and your utopian vision?

Your approach sounds very much like Marxism in that you are extremely critical of the existing order - have a view of utopia - but have no practical measures to get us there...

That is dangerous in and of itself...no matter what you may say about the flaws and ungodliness of democracy.

How ungodly is it to reign death and destruction upon the planet in random killings in the name of some 'higher utopia?' I don't want to find out..

If you want Muslim government, if you want a Muslim world, then try to win it by the force of your ideas...Telling me that democracy is filthy and Satan will embrace it can easily be returned onto your very head, onto your very efforts...

Then what? Are we at an impasse when that happens? When both parties call the other "Satanic!"

Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

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ummziba
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Posted: 12 July 2005 at 1:28pm

Originally posted by b95000

Brother Mockba, you are so right when you say: "Until people do not make effort to establish obedience to the law of the Almighty as their primary goal, there will be no success in this world..."

What say you?

What say I?

I hold no disrespect nor outright disdain for any human being. What I find disrepectful and outright disdainful is total disregard for the Creator. We were created to worship Allah and act in the way He has set down in the revealed texts. No human has the right to supercede the laws of the Creator.

la illaha illahla - there is no god but Allah. To follow any other way is to snub our noses at the Almighty. If all of humankind would finally figure that out it would be utopia!

Of course, the Creator gave humankind free will - there is no compulsion in religion, so everyone can choose to follow Him or not.

"Verily, Allah will not deal unjustly with man in aught: it is man that wrongs his own soul." Qur'an 10:44

If you knew history, if you read the Qur'an, you would see that Muslims have nothing but respect for all human life.

Peace, ummziba.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~

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b95000

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Posted: 12 July 2005 at 2:27pm

Originally posted by ummziba

What I find disrepectful and outright disdainful is total disregard for the Creator...Of course, the Creator gave humankind free will - there is no compulsion in religion, so everyone can choose to follow Him or not.

"Verily, Allah will not deal unjustly with man in aught: it is man that wrongs his own soul." Qur'an 10:44

This is vital. No compulsion.

Let's look then at a situation where you have people that do have 'regard for their Creator.' What do you think about living (in countries) side by side with Christians - for instance. How will that work - how will you form a government of that country? How could you base it on Sharia if there were just as many Christians, say, or more Christians than Muslims? Wouldn't you, of necessity need to come up with another system that would work for the Christians and the Muslims - together? If yes, then will the government formed be the 'democratic filth' that Mockba referred to? Or just what sort of arrangement will it be?

That is, we're assuming there's no compulsion as you stated ummziba.

May the Lord bless you all by His gracious Hand.

Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

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Author	Message
Lameese Female Senior Member Joined: 08 April 2002 Online Status: Offline Posts: 307	Posted: 12 July 2005 at 1:53am
	*Originally posted by MOCKBA* Bismillah Government that is first and foremost obedient to God's commands is better... the rest is dirty and bloodstained politics. You mean like the Saud's in KSA? That kind of government? Or were you talking about Jordan's government? Where is that kind of government again? Where is this government that "is first and foremost obedient to God's commands"? Maybe the UAE? Which one does not have a Royal Family? Where is that again? ................... Lameese
	IP Logged

herjihad Senior Member Joined: 26 January 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2473	Posted: 12 July 2005 at 4:27am
	Bismillah, Sophie, Thank you for your post. It was the most cogent post on the topic. We will pray for all of those hurt in bombings.
	Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
	IP Logged

MOCKBA Moderator Group Joined: 27 September 2000 Location: Malaysia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1410	Posted: 12 July 2005 at 4:36am
	Lameese, unfortunately such government does not exist in establishment today. This however does not give Muslims a discouraging thought that it is not achievable. Until people do not make effort to establish obedience to the Law of the Almighty as their primary goal, there will be no success in this world... b25000, governing system of a tribe of small indigenous people in remote Amazonia is more superior in RESULTS than your filthy "democracy". Democracy that proclaims its fight against corruption, while having corrupted non other but religion... and to the extent that Satan himself will soon embrace it to the applause of gay bishops and paedophile parishioners. And this is why this "democracy" is not comfortable sharind this world with neighbours that are trying to establish obedience to God.
	MOCKBA
	IP Logged

ummziba Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 16 March 2005 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1158	Posted: 12 July 2005 at 5:50am
	Assalamu alaikum, This point was made somewhere here before, and I received much grief for it, but, I feel a need to reiterate. Democracy is not compatible with Islam in the sense that in a democracy the majority vote wins. If the majority vote for something that is against the laws of Allah, this is not good for Islam or Muslims. Take, for example, the "democracy" in Canada. This democractic government has gone with the wishes of the majority of the people and voted "same sex marriage" into law. When the majority wants, and votes for something evil, it is not good for anyone. We cannot expect that in a majority Muslim country that a democracy would work any better. Look at the example of Turkey, where Muslimahs are not allowed to wear hijab in government buildings or schools. When the majority of people do not follow the laws of Allah, democracy works against us all. Brother Mockba, you are so right when you say: "Until people do not make effort to establish obedience to the law of the Almighty as their primary goal, there will be no success in this world..." Peace, ummziba.
	Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
	IP Logged

b95000 Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1328	Posted: 12 July 2005 at 12:20pm
	This point was made somewhere here before, and I received much grief for it, but, I feel a need to reiterate. Democracy is not compatible with Islam in the sense that in a democracy the majority vote wins. If the majority vote for something that is against the laws of Allah, this is not good for Islam or Muslims." We cannot expect that in a majority Muslim country that a democracy would work any better. Look at the example of Turkey, where Muslimahs are not allowed to wear hijab in government buildings or schools. When the majority of people do not follow the laws of Allah, democracy works against us all. It's not simply about what's good for Islam. The world is made up of 6 billion plus people only somewhat over 1 billion are Muslim and there are something like 1.5 billion Christians. How in the world will you relate to the rest of the world if your only consideration is what is good for Islam? Isn't this what has gotten us into this conundrum? We MUST learn to relate to each other or Muslims had best separate themselves from the rest of the world...is that what you really want or advocate? Separation, removal from all the benefits of other societies and cultures? What a shame if that's true.. Brother Mockba, you are so right when you say: "Until people do not make effort to establish obedience to the law of the Almighty as their primary goal, there will be no success in this world..." "there will be no success in this world..." Again, such an monolithic view of the world is not practicable - do you really think? Such disrespect, outright disdain it appears, for non-Muslims, is troubling to me to say the least...is this really the way Muslims are - disdainful and disrespectful of other cultures and faiths...I guess I'd grown up differently, hearing differently... What say you?
	Bruce Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
	IP Logged

b95000 Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1328	Posted: 12 July 2005 at 12:35pm
	*Originally posted by Lameese* *Originally posted by MOCKBA* Government that is first and foremost obedient to God's commands is better... the rest is dirty and bloodstained politics. You mean like the Saud's in KSA? That kind of government? Or were you talking about Jordan's government? Where is that kind of government again? Where is this government that "is first and foremost obedient to God's commands"? Maybe the UAE? Which one does not have a Royal Family? Where is that again? ................... Lameese *Originally posted by MOCKBA* Lameese, unfortunately such government does not exist in establishment today. This however does not give Muslims a discouraging thought that it is not achievable. Until people do not make effort to establish obedience to the Law of the Almighty as their primary goal, there will be no success in this world... b25000, governing system of a tribe of small indigenous people in remote Amazonia is more superior in RESULTS than your filthy "democracy". Democracy that proclaims its fight against corruption, while having corrupted non other but religion... and to the extent that Satan himself will soon embrace it to the applause of gay bishops and paedophile parishioners. And this is why this "democracy" is not comfortable sharind this world with neighbours that are trying to establish obedience to God. Fine - we can do comparative studies if you wish. But how do you come off saying democracy is 'filthy'? What experience do you have with it to make such claims? Further, you can point to NO examples of a successful government that is conducted 'first and foremost obedient to God's commands' (I take it you mean only by the precepts of Allah, Mohammed and the Qur'an) - so what planet are you living on...it certainly doesn't appear to be Planet Earth. I am only saying that a flawed democracy is the worst form of government, except for all rest...(Winston Churchill). Since you cannot point to any government operating 'first and foremost obedient to God's commands' then what would you advocate in the meantime - between now and your utopian vision? Your approach sounds very much like Marxism in that you are extremely critical of the existing order - have a view of utopia - but have no practical measures to get us there... That is dangerous in and of itself...no matter what you may say about the flaws and ungodliness of democracy. How ungodly is it to reign death and destruction upon the planet in random killings in the name of some 'higher utopia?' I don't want to find out.. If you want Muslim government, if you want a Muslim world, then try to win it by the force of your ideas...Telling me that democracy is filthy and Satan will embrace it can easily be returned onto your very head, onto your very efforts... Then what? Are we at an impasse when that happens? When both parties call the other "Satanic!"
	Bruce Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
	IP Logged

ummziba Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 16 March 2005 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1158	Posted: 12 July 2005 at 1:28pm
	*Originally posted by b95000* Brother Mockba, you are so right when you say: "Until people do not make effort to establish obedience to the law of the Almighty as their primary goal, there will be no success in this world..." "there will be no success in this world..." Again, such an monolithic view of the world is not practicable - do you really think? Such disrespect, outright disdain it appears, for non-Muslims, is troubling to me to say the least...is this really the way Muslims are - disdainful and disrespectful of other cultures and faiths...I guess I'd grown up differently, hearing differently... What say you? What say I? I hold no disrespect nor outright disdain for any human being. What I find disrepectful and outright disdainful is total disregard for the Creator. We were created to worship Allah and act in the way He has set down in the revealed texts. No human has the right to supercede the laws of the Creator. la illaha illahla - there is no god but Allah. To follow any other way is to snub our noses at the Almighty. If all of humankind would finally figure that out it would be utopia! Of course, the Creator gave humankind free will - there is no compulsion in religion, so everyone can choose to follow Him or not. "Verily, Allah will not deal unjustly with man in aught: it is man that wrongs his own soul." Qur'an 10:44 If you knew history, if you read the Qur'an, you would see that Muslims have nothing but respect for all human life. Peace, ummziba.
	Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
	IP Logged

b95000 Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1328	Posted: 12 July 2005 at 2:27pm
	*Originally posted by* *ummziba* What I find disrepectful and outright disdainful is total disregard for the Creator...Of course, the Creator gave humankind free will - there is no compulsion in religion, so everyone can choose to follow Him or not. "Verily, Allah will not deal unjustly with man in aught: it is man that wrongs his own soul." Qur'an 10:44 This is vital. No compulsion. Let's look then at a situation where you have people that do have 'regard for their Creator.' What do you think about living (in countries) side by side with Christians - for instance. How will that work - how will you form a government of that country? How could you base it on Sharia if there were just as many Christians, say, or more Christians than Muslims? Wouldn't you, of necessity need to come up with another system that would work for the Christians and the Muslims - together? If yes, then will the government formed be the 'democratic filth' that Mockba referred to? Or just what sort of arrangement will it be? That is, we're assuming there's no compulsion as you stated ummziba. May the Lord bless you all by His gracious Hand.
	Bruce Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
	IP Logged

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