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Suleyman

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Posted: 09 July 2005 at 12:34am

Originally posted by ZamanH

[QUOTE=Ummziba]Why do we Muslims allow "so called Muslims" to think and act in such a disgusting manner.[/.QUOTE]

Sorry to disappoint you, dear sis; although, I know the terrorists were wrong, I won't condemn them because they didn't attack first and they killed much less. I will pray for their forgiveness. I am sorry that the children were killed but, frankly, I am disppointed that few were killed.

Zaman,Qur'an is saying different;what a wonderful book It is and we are so far away from...we should read more...

005.028
YUSUFALI: "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.

Edited by Suleyman

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Colin

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Posted: 09 July 2005 at 12:59am

They attacked trains filled with Muslims, Christians, Hindus and other innocent members of the multi-ethnic, multi-cultural population of London. Which particular group are you most dissapointed they failed to kill? Or maybe you are just dissapointed in general that the body count has not reached the sort of numbers that would satisfy you?

You are really sick!

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MOCKBA

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Posted: 09 July 2005 at 1:59am

Bismillah

Brothers and Sisters in Islam,

If killing of women, children and old men is strictly prohibited during the time of war... how can one possibly slaughter innocents with such violent attacks in the name of Allah that have taken place in London?

As on September 11th in New York, before the dust settled over London and the smoke cleared out, before the dead bodies were counted, many media fingers around the world were already pointed at Muslims. To make us feel guilty for something our religion stands strictly against, to make our subconsciousness give up and admit the link between terror and Islam. That is the main objective... to break us.

These are attacks against ordinary people, and the beasts who are behind them are the same who continuously and as we speak shower bombs on civilians in Iraq and wipe villages of innocents in Afghanistan. It is their war, and them making their worst nightmares coming true on us.

This is not Islam, it has never been and will never be such. These are the times when appearance no longer reflects the reality. These are the times of deception. These are the times with events so awkward and twisted that the sun may begin rising from the west without making anyone surprised. We must continue waving our banner of Shahada high and proud, spread the message of Islam loud and clear and don't let ourselves be forced to speak in a subdued and apologetic tone.

MOCKBA

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ZamanH

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Posted: 09 July 2005 at 7:26pm

Muslims didn't attack first. Although, I know it is unislamic to hurt the civilian population, but frankly/honestly, I don't understand the rule but I will abide by it. I won't condemn the terrorists, though.

Intentionally hurting the children I understand is wrong, but in a democratic country, those who hold franchise are directly answerable for their government's mischiefs (they have the option of leaving their country if they want to be seen as neutrals).

Edited by ZamanH

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet

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Yusuf.

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Posted: 09 July 2005 at 7:52pm

Assalamu alaikum,

We do not know in fact that it was Middle Eastern terrorists who conducted this attack. It came quite conveniently for Bush; support for his conduct of the Iraq invasion is waning. After quite a bit of research I am convinced that the Pentagon was struck by a missile fired from a US warplane. This attack likewise could very well have been engineered by the Bush administration. We must also keep this in mind.

Yusuf

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AK47

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Posted: 09 July 2005 at 9:01pm

I would be careful about who you say is not Muslim. If a Muslim calls another Muslim a kuffar unjustifiably then he/she becomes kuffar themselves. Despite all the alleged "Muslim" organizations that have claimed credit for this bombing (the 'Secret Organization of Al-Qaeda in Europe'..that's original), there is no substantial proof that it was done by any real militant organization. There is such thing as black-ops, you know. And though I must admit that I too do suspect some misguided militant group, I know the Western world well enough not to rule out the possibility that Western governments (in conjunction with 'Israel' no doubt) will commit any number of atrocities against their own citizens in order to justify their attacks on Muslims everywhere.

However, for arguments sake, let's assume it was an Islamic militant group. I would like to point out the following hadith: (though I have to admit that since I've only heard this at the mosque, I don't know who narrated it) "A man asked the Prophet of Allah if a Muslim could steal and still be a Muslim and the Prophet replied, 'Yes.' The man then asked the Prophet if a Muslim could commit murder and still be a Muslim and the Prophet replied 'Yes.'...". There's more to this hadith, about how a Muslim can't lie unjustifiably and still be a Muslim, but the point of the hadith is that even if a Muslim does commit unjustifiable murder (such as in the case of the bombings in London) he remains a Muslim, though he's a great sinner.

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MOCKBA

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Posted: 09 July 2005 at 9:37pm

Bismillah

Originally posted by AK47

AK47, the misinterpreted hadith explains your weak understanding of its meaning. Murder is prohibited in Islam and if commited deserves severe punishment, which under Shari'ah is death. The person may well remain being a Muslim (all sins except shirk can be forgiven in the sight of Allah) but that does not free him from facing the punishment. This hadith teaches us not to approach such sin, and if we have done wrong in the past when we were ignorant or unaware it instructs us to repent immediately. It does NOT (as many mistakenly deduce) tell us that it is OK/ acceptable to murder, so long as we repent afterwards... Let's be careful! There is no way for this hadith to justify the act of militants whether they claim to be Muslims or non-Muslims. Many Muslims do want revenge for masses of murdered brethren by infidel leaders and troops, however this is not the way for retaliation.

Narrated 'Ikrima from Ibn 'Abbas: Allah's Apostles said, "When a slave (of Allah) commits illegal sexual intercourse, he is not a believer at the time of committing it; and if he steals, he is not a believer at the time of stealing; and if he drinks an alcoholic drink, when he is not a believer at the time of drinking it; and he is not a believer when he commits a murder," 'Ikrima said: I asked Ibn Abbas, "How is faith taken away from him?" He said, Like this," by clasping his hands and then separating them, and added, "But if he repents, faith returns to him like this, by clasping his hands again. (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, No. 800)

Edited by MOCKBA

MOCKBA

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MOCKBA

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Posted: 09 July 2005 at 11:01pm

Bismillah

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, a time would come when the murderer would not know why he has committed the murder, and the victim would not know why he has been killed. (Sahih Bukhari, Book 41, No. 6949)

MOCKBA

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Author	Message
Suleyman Senior Member Joined: 10 March 2003 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3324	Posted: 09 July 2005 at 12:34am
	*Originally posted by ZamanH* [QUOTE=Ummziba]Why do we Muslims allow "so called Muslims" to think and act in such a disgusting manner.[/.QUOTE] Sorry to disappoint you, dear sis; although, I know the terrorists were wrong, I won't condemn them because they didn't attack first and they killed much less. I will pray for their forgiveness. I am sorry that the children were killed but, frankly, I am disppointed that few were killed. Zaman,Qur'an is saying different;what a wonderful book It is and we are so far away from...we should read more... 005.028 YUSUFALI: "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds. Edited by Suleyman
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Colin Senior Member Joined: 23 September 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1252	Posted: 09 July 2005 at 12:59am
	*Originally posted by ZamanH* [QUOTE=Ummziba]Why do we Muslims allow "so called Muslims" to think and act in such a disgusting manner.[/.QUOTE] Sorry to disappoint you, dear sis; although, I know the terrorists were wrong, I won't condemn them because they didn't attack first and they killed much less. I will pray for their forgiveness. I am sorry that the children were killed but, frankly, I am disppointed that few were killed. They attacked trains filled with Muslims, Christians, Hindus and other innocent members of the multi-ethnic, multi-cultural population of London. Which particular group are you most dissapointed they failed to kill? Or maybe you are just dissapointed in general that the body count has not reached the sort of numbers that would satisfy you? You are really sick!
	IP Logged

MOCKBA Moderator Group Joined: 27 September 2000 Location: Malaysia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1410	Posted: 09 July 2005 at 1:59am
	Bismillah Brothers and Sisters in Islam, If killing of women, children and old men is strictly prohibited during the time of war... how can one possibly slaughter innocents with such violent attacks in the name of Allah that have taken place in London? As on September 11th in New York, before the dust settled over London and the smoke cleared out, before the dead bodies were counted, many media fingers around the world were already pointed at Muslims. To make us feel guilty for something our religion stands strictly against, to make our subconsciousness give up and admit the link between terror and Islam. That is the main objective... to break us. These are attacks against ordinary people, and the beasts who are behind them are the same who continuously and as we speak shower bombs on civilians in Iraq and wipe villages of innocents in Afghanistan. It is their war, and them making their worst nightmares coming true on us. This is not Islam, it has never been and will never be such. These are the times when appearance no longer reflects the reality. These are the times of deception. These are the times with events so awkward and twisted that the sun may begin rising from the west without making anyone surprised. We must continue waving our banner of Shahada high and proud, spread the message of Islam loud and clear and don't let ourselves be forced to speak in a subdued and apologetic tone.
	MOCKBA
	IP Logged

ZamanH Guest Group Account Suspended Joined: 21 July 2004 Location: India Online Status: Offline Posts: 448	Posted: 09 July 2005 at 7:26pm
	Muslims didn't attack first. Although, I know it is unislamic to hurt the civilian population, but frankly/honestly, I don't understand the rule but I will abide by it. I won't condemn the terrorists, though. Intentionally hurting the children I understand is wrong, but in a democratic country, those who hold franchise are directly answerable for their government's mischiefs (they have the option of leaving their country if they want to be seen as neutrals). Edited by ZamanH
	An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend. There will be more women in hell than men. ..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191) Heaven lies under mother's feet
	IP Logged

Yusuf. Senior Member Joined: 02 July 2001 Location: far from home Online Status: Offline Posts: 2385	Posted: 09 July 2005 at 7:52pm
	Assalamu alaikum, We do not know in fact that it was Middle Eastern terrorists who conducted this attack. It came quite conveniently for Bush; support for his conduct of the Iraq invasion is waning. After quite a bit of research I am convinced that the Pentagon was struck by a missile fired from a US warplane. This attack likewise could very well have been engineered by the Bush administration. We must also keep this in mind.
	Yusuf
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AK47 Newbie Joined: 09 July 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 7	Posted: 09 July 2005 at 9:01pm
	I would be careful about who you say is not Muslim. If a Muslim calls another Muslim a kuffar unjustifiably then he/she becomes kuffar themselves. Despite all the alleged "Muslim" organizations that have claimed credit for this bombing (the 'Secret Organization of Al-Qaeda in Europe'..that's original), there is no substantial proof that it was done by any real militant organization. There is such thing as black-ops, you know. And though I must admit that I too do suspect some misguided militant group, I know the Western world well enough not to rule out the possibility that Western governments (in conjunction with 'Israel' no doubt) will commit any number of atrocities against their own citizens in order to justify their attacks on Muslims everywhere. However, for arguments sake, let's assume it was an Islamic militant group. I would like to point out the following hadith: (though I have to admit that since I've only heard this at the mosque, I don't know who narrated it) "A man asked the Prophet of Allah if a Muslim could steal and still be a Muslim and the Prophet replied, 'Yes.' The man then asked the Prophet if a Muslim could commit murder and still be a Muslim and the Prophet replied 'Yes.'...". There's more to this hadith, about how a Muslim can't lie unjustifiably and still be a Muslim, but the point of the hadith is that even if a Muslim does commit unjustifiable murder (such as in the case of the bombings in London) he remains a Muslim, though he's a great sinner.
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MOCKBA Moderator Group Joined: 27 September 2000 Location: Malaysia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1410	Posted: 09 July 2005 at 9:37pm
	Bismillah *Originally posted by AK47* However, for arguments sake, let's assume it was an Islamic militant group. I would like to point out the following hadith: (though I have to admit that since I've only heard this at the mosque, I don't know who narrated it) "A man asked the Prophet of Allah if a Muslim could steal and still be a Muslim and the Prophet replied, 'Yes.' The man then asked the Prophet if a Muslim could commit murder and still be a Muslim and the Prophet replied 'Yes.'...". There's more to this hadith, about how a Muslim can't lie unjustifiably and still be a Muslim, but the point of the hadith is that even if a Muslim does commit unjustifiable murder (such as in the case of the bombings in London) he remains a Muslim, though he's a great sinner. AK47, the misinterpreted hadith explains your weak understanding of its meaning. Murder is prohibited in Islam and if commited deserves severe punishment, which under Shari'ah is death. The person may well remain being a Muslim (all sins except shirk can be forgiven in the sight of Allah) but that does not free him from facing the punishment. This hadith teaches us not to approach such sin, and if we have done wrong in the past when we were ignorant or unaware it instructs us to repent immediately. It does NOT (as many mistakenly deduce) tell us that it is OK/ acceptable to murder, so long as we repent afterwards... Let's be careful! There is no way for this hadith to justify the act of militants whether they claim to be Muslims or non-Muslims. Many Muslims do want revenge for masses of murdered brethren by infidel leaders and troops, however this is not the way for retaliation. Narrated 'Ikrima from Ibn 'Abbas: Allah's Apostles said, "When a slave (of Allah) commits illegal sexual intercourse, he is not a believer at the time of committing it; and if he steals, he is not a believer at the time of stealing; and if he drinks an alcoholic drink, when he is not a believer at the time of drinking it; and he is not a believer when he commits a murder," 'Ikrima said: I asked Ibn Abbas, "How is faith taken away from him?" He said, Like this," by clasping his hands and then separating them, and added, "But if he repents, faith returns to him like this, by clasping his hands again. (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, No. 800) Edited by MOCKBA
	MOCKBA
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MOCKBA Moderator Group Joined: 27 September 2000 Location: Malaysia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1410	Posted: 09 July 2005 at 11:01pm
	Bismillah Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, a time would come when the murderer would not know why he has committed the murder, and the victim would not know why he has been killed. (Sahih Bukhari, Book 41, No. 6949)
	MOCKBA
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