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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 09 February 2009 at 1:11pm
There are no assumptions here....the Los Angeles Times would not editorialize some thing they have not checked the veracity of it's contents cuz it will cost them a bundle if they don't when it is being litigated....
You need to pay attention to the high lighted part....Syria is a dictatorship and you would be naive to plead innocence for their no involvement by the Syrian dictatorship!

 Do you even understand what is "rendition" and they pick the countries with dictatorship or lack of rule of law? This is CIA op's and you say the government is not involved LOL
 In this particular case a country that has killed the Sunnis brotherhood by the thousand in the past without any repercussions!

Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 09 February 2009 at 9:45pm


okay fine...i accept ure argument...it was not a will since it was not mentioned....but do u deny the fact that it was SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT?? do you deny that what had to be written down was SUNNAH OF PROPHET (s.a.w) which shudnt be taken lightly..a reason being the comment of rasulullah (s.a.w) on watever he was goint to say??
 
 
I replied to this post a couple of days earlier, but for some reason, it didnt post.
 
Anything that the Prophet ever actually said is indeed very important. That is a truism.
 
What I dont understand is, why create such a huge fuss about something that he was going to say, but in the end decided not to - due to whatever reason best known to him and Allah. Will you deny the fact that Allah took upon the responsibility of preserving Islam upon Himself? Muslims believe that  Allah revealed all that was neccessary for us Muslims through Prophet Muhammad. Our Prophet took his job very seriousley, had anything been top in his list of priorities for us Muslims, he would have conveyed them to us, and not let the sahaba come in his way. So please, I urge you to focus on things that Prophet Muhammad and Islam lay a priority on. Not on things he was going to say but in the end decided not to.
 
What is the point in dwelling over that particular issue, when it is done and gone. . . .there really is no point, unless it be an agenda to badmouth certain Sahaba and portray them in a negative light. Which is something Prophet Muhammad would never agree with. He loved, trusted and respected his Sahaba. For ordinary people to stand up and throw blame on them is a huge insult. Are you suggesting that Prophet Muhammad would surround himself with and trust people like Hazrat Umar, had they been of suspicious character? Have that much faith in our Prophet.
 


i seriosly doubt ure comments...i can bring argiments on the "majority" thing you have brought up....but lets first look into those hadith u hav provided..

well its ure translation..not mine...it all talks about the "main body" of muslims....do u think numbers matter in front of Allah (s.w.t)??? i seriosly doubt u wud say yes....

You are welcome to doubt my personal comments - but I posted authentic ahadith from various sources, that all say the same thing. Not believing in the authencity of those ahadith is another thing altogether, and you should just let me know if you dont agree with thier authencity. Which by the way, are agreed upon by the majority of Muslim scholars.
 
The ahadith simply are to set the ummah straight on what 'sect' to follow (none, btw) - the ahadith are to give guidance to the ummah as to which Islam is teh one as taught by Prophet Muhammad - and not invented by ordinary people after his death.


well contrary to you points, there is a clear hadith of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) wen he discusses what should we do after him (a.s)..it is written in sahih muslim that:


O people, I am only a human being and I am about to respond to the messenger of my Lord [i.e. the call of death]. I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it." Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah . Then he said, "And my Ahl al­Bayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al­Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al­Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al­Bayt"'" ....
 
On the contrary - I find nothing in this hadith, that is contrary to what I said. You forget, we are not the kind of Muslims who think negatively of any sahabi, we give the due respect each deserves, and do not find it our place to comment on thier character. Which is why we love and respect Prophet Muhammad's Ahlul Bayt as well. One difference is tht We consider Prophet Muhammad's wives part of his family, and I know that some muslims like u beliveve that his wives were not part of his 'family'/ahlul bayt - and his family consisted of his daughter, son-in-law and nephews. - and thier direct blood descendants. So according to me, that hadith  refers to his wives as well, and all those muslims who blame/throw badlight on some of his wives, should remember God regarding his Alhlul bayt.
 
I think by posting this hadith, you probably meant to say that Shias are the ones that follow the 'Ahlul Bayt' . . .and so r on the right path. Correct me if i am wrong. In that case, why is most of their 'religion' based on the sayings of various Imams and whatnot? Also, why is it that (for instance) that you people believe certain things like Mutaah to be halal, when the Prophet forbade him? in hadith narrated by hazrat Ali (r.a) himself. A majorty of what these people do today has nothing to do with the 'Ahlul Bayt' themselves. . . and was never taught by them.....

 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 15 February 2009 at 1:41pm
My answers are in green..


Originally posted by Chrysalis



okay fine...i accept ure argument...it was not a will since it was not mentioned....but do u deny the fact that it was SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT?? do you deny that what had to be written down was SUNNAH OF PROPHET (s.a.w) which shudnt be taken lightly..a reason being the comment of rasulullah (s.a.w) on watever he was goint to say?? 
 
I replied to this post a couple of days earlier, but for some reason, it didnt post.
 
Anything that the Prophet ever actually said is indeed very important. That is a truism.
 
What I dont understand is, why create such a huge fuss about something that he was going to say, but in the end decided not to - due to whatever reason best known to him and Allah. Will you deny the fact that Allah took upon the responsibility of preserving Islam upon Himself?
Yes....and it was done perfectly.....what Prophet (s.a.w) wanted to say was important as well.....but what we see today...is what the Prophet (s.a.w) feared when He (s.a.w) had said ""Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray."" now will u say that whatever the Prophet (s.a.w) wanted to write was not important when someone like u consider dat I hav gone astray, while I hav da same views about u...isnt it....it wud probably wud hav solved issues....but what happend??? he was prevented from writing isnt it??? y do u fail to answer me wen I ask what u would have done if the Prophet (s.a.w) ordered u to get him pen and paper??


Muslims believe that  Allah revealed all that was neccessary for us Muslims through Prophet Muhammad. Our Prophet took his job very seriousley, had anything been top in his list of priorities for us Muslims, he would have conveyed them to us, and not let the sahaba come in his way.
He had conveyed the message...I agree with you....and i am pretty much sure, whatever it was...was a serios REMINDER...he surly dint want to add or subtract anything from religion...because the last verse had revealed till den...

So please, I urge you to focus on things that Prophet Muhammad and Islam lay a priority on. Not on things he was going to say but in the end decided not to.
how can u assume that he decided not to???
 
What is the point in dwelling over that particular issue, when it is done and gone. . . .there really is no point, unless it be an agenda to badmouth certain Sahaba and portray them in a negative light. Which is something Prophet Muhammad would never agree with. He loved, trusted and respected his Sahaba.
Yes no doubt, The people who were truly his Sahaba (r.a) were surly great people....who is badmouthing them???

 For ordinary people to stand up and throw blame on them is a huge insult. Are you suggesting that Prophet Muhammad would surround himself with and trust people like Hazrat Umar, had they been of suspicious character? Have that much faith in our Prophet.
well its not new that Prophet (s.a.w) would be surrounded by people who were not muslims as well...many a times...like people who came up to him (s.a.w) to sign hudaybiyah......what matters is who shud we take our religion from....
 


i seriosly doubt ure comments...i can bring argiments on the "majority" thing you have brought up....but lets first look into those hadith u hav provided..

well its ure translation..not mine...it all talks about the "main body" of muslims....do u think numbers matter in front of Allah (s.w.t)??? i seriosly doubt u wud say yes....

You are welcome to doubt my personal comments - but I posted authentic ahadith from various sources, that all say the same thing. Not believing in the authencity of those ahadith is another thing altogether, and you should just let me know if you dont agree with thier authencity. Which by the way, are agreed upon by the majority of Muslim scholars.
We??? i doubt bro...u dint answer my question...but its fine..i can understand...btw...by "WE", what do u mean...u mean the deobandis or, berelvis or, sufis or, wahaabis or , salafis etc etc or shafi'i, hanafi, maliki, hanbali etc etc?? please specify??
i mean for u, numbers matter i guess, since u hav translated dat hadith in ure mind in dat way..so please prove to me who are the "MAJORITY" among those groups??i need statistics...

 
The ahadith simply are to set the ummah straight on what 'sect' to follow (none, btw) - the ahadith are to give guidance to the ummah as to which Islam is teh one as taught by Prophet Muhammad - and not invented by ordinary people after his death.
well again u hav tried to cover ure feeling in ure last line, but ya...alhamdulilah we accept every hadith which is inline with quran and reject whichever go against it...and alhamdulillah atleast we dont follow someone like abu hurayra who was even beaten up by Umar for cooking up hadeeth.....alhamdulillah....


well contrary to you points, there is a clear hadith of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) wen he discusses what should we do after him (a.s)..it is written in sahih muslim that:


O people, I am only a human being and I am about to respond to the messenger of my Lord [i.e. the call of death]. I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it." Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah . Then he said, "And my Ahl al­Bayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al­Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al­Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al­Bayt"'" ....
 
On the contrary - I find nothing in this hadith, that is contrary to what I said. You forget, we are not the kind of Muslims who think negatively of any sahabi, we give the due respect each deserves, and do not find it our place to comment on thier character. Which is why we love and respect Prophet Muhammad's Ahlul Bayt as well.
Neither do we do dat...do we?? I dint bring up this hadith "against" ure hadith.....I was just showing u the criteria for being successful in the words of Prophet Muhmmad (s.a.w)...I am not even discussing sects here...but wat I am discussing is the criteria...now any individual following this criteria is successful, regardless of any sect he belongs to...

One difference is tht We consider Prophet Muhammad's wives part of his family, and I know that some muslims like u beliveve that his wives were not part of his 'family'/ahlul bayt - and his family consisted of his daughter, son-in-law and nephews. - and thier direct blood descendants.

About the Wives Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) has said "Yazid b. Hayyan reported: We went to him (Zaid b. Arqam) and said to him. You have found goodness (for you had the honour) to live in the company of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and offered prayer behind him, and the rest of the hadith is the same but with this variation of wording that lie said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error, and in this (hadith) these words are also found: We said: Who are amongst the members of the household ? Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.


Source: Sahih Muslim Book 31, Number 5923"
I dont think my view can be clearer than this...now its upto u now....

So according to me, that hadith  refers to his wives as well, and all those muslims who blame/throw badlight on some of his wives, should remember God regarding his Alhlul bayt.

 
I think by posting this hadith, you probably meant to say that Shias are the ones that follow the 'Ahlul Bayt' . . .and so r on the right path. Correct me if i am wrong. In that case, why is most of their 'religion' based on the sayings of various Imams and whatnot?
The Base of Followers of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) is Tawheed....and Prophets incuding the Infallible Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) and then The Imams (a.s)......regardless of his sect...

Also, why is it that (for instance) that you people believe certain things like Mutaah to be halal, when the Prophet forbade him?
Prophet (s.a.w) never forbade Muta....I dont think any hadith can contradict what Quran says, BECAUSE QURAN IS THE MOST PERFECT BOOK IN OUR HANDS...NONE CAN BE COMPARED TO IT......

 in hadith narrated by hazrat Ali (r.a) himself. A majorty of what these people do today has nothing to do with the 'Ahlul Bayt' themselves. . . and was never taught by them.....
It is impossible for such an event to happen....because surly Imam Ali (a.s) would not speak against what the Quran has to teach.....Hadith and its narrators can be flawed...but the Quran cant be flawed...

u r trying to indulge me in a debate of muta, wen i personally think this not a BIG ISSUE...and clarifying this out does not make anybody a good muslim or a bad one......

I hope you will think on my reply.....

brother..this i guess is a discussion, and its good if we stop looking at who wins or looses this..because i think there are better aims for a discussion than winning or loosing.....

 


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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 16 February 2009 at 5:06am
 

Me: What I dont understand is, why create such a huge fuss about something that he was going to say, but in the end decided not to - due to whatever reason best known to him and Allah. Will you deny the fact that Allah took upon the responsibility of preserving Islam upon Himself?

Asda: Yes....and it was done perfectly.....what Prophet (s.a.w) wanted to say was important as well.....but what we see today...is what the Prophet (s.a.w) feared when He (s.a.w) had said ""Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray."" now will u say that whatever the Prophet (s.a.w) wanted to write was not important when someone like u consider dat I hav gone astray, while I hav da same views about u...isnt it....it wud probably wud hav solved issues....but what happend??? he was prevented from writing isnt it??? y do u fail to answer me wen I ask what u would have done if the Prophet (s.a.w) ordered u to get him pen and paper??

Going in cycles now. . .
 
The Prophet couldnte be prevented from relaying his message. If the mushrikeen couldnt prevent him - I doubt the sahaba could. The bottom line is, the Prophet didnt say it. There were numerous times the Prophet remained silent on matters due to wisdom. There were occasions when he said things like 'Had you known what I know, you would be crying" . . .yet he never told them all that stuff did he? Prophetic wisdom, and Allah's Will. But I guess the Shias know better.
 
I dont like Hypothetical games, but since you are bent upon an answer: I would have gotten him a pen and paper, inshalah - But at the end, the Prophet would only have said something had he wanted to, or decided to, that Allah willed. He could very well have changed his mind.
What you are suggesting is, that you and I are supposedly better Muslims than the trusted ones that stood by him at that point - because we would have done things differently than what they did. Atleast one of them at that point, was given the prediction of Jannah in his lifetime. Is that so? This arrogance of suspecting those sahaba is something that I cannot comply with.
 Muslims believe that  Allah revealed all that was neccessary for us Muslims through Prophet Muhammad. Our Prophet took his job very seriousley, had anything been top in his list of priorities for us Muslims, he would have conveyed them to us, and not let the sahaba come in his way.
He had conveyed the message...I agree with you....and i am pretty much sure, whatever it was...was a serios REMINDER...he surly dint want to add or subtract anything from religion...because the last verse had revealed till den...
 
Alhamdulilah, we agree on something. The Prophet conveyed all that he had to before he passed away.

 So please, I urge you to focus on things that Prophet Muhammad and Islam lay a priority on. Not on things he was going to say but in the end decided not to.
how can u assume that he decided not to???
 
Because my friend, Prophets and Messengers only do things due to Allah's will. Thier will follows Allah's will - and they make decisions on the basis of that. They do not let 'other' people interfere in thier Message. . . they do not succumb to peer pressure, or public demand. They do not let thier personal feelings of anger or annoyance come in the way of relating thier message. If ever they do something otherwise, Allah immediately corrects them, and Intervenes. So, if the Prophet did not say something - it was a wilful, concious act. Not an act that was influenced by the Sahabah around him. He would never do that. So that is how I know. . . I dont even 'assume', its the faith in the quality of the Message and the Prophet. If Allah let His Prophets get disrupted by peer pressure, there would be no guarantee of the authencity and quality of the Message we have today. (Quran , Hadith)
 
 
 
 
What is the point in dwelling over that particular issue, when it is done and gone. . . .there really is no point, unless it be an agenda to badmouth certain Sahaba and portray them in a negative light. Which is something Prophet Muhammad would never agree with. He loved, trusted and respected his Sahaba.
Yes no doubt, The people who were truly his Sahaba (r.a) were surly great people....who is badmouthing them???
 
 
By throwing suspicion and blame upon the character of certain sahaba e.g. Hazrat Umar nauzubillah not letting Prophet Muhammad say something, or refusing to follow his commands - you are inadvertently badmouthing him.
 
But then, from the way you worded your statement - it seems to me that you do not consider him to be a Sahabi? I guess it was another mistake (nauzubillah) of the Prophet, when he included him as an ashrah-e-mubasharah and gave him the prediction to paradise in his lifetime.

 
 For ordinary people to stand up and throw blame on them is a huge insult. Are you suggesting that Prophet Muhammad would surround himself with and trust people like Hazrat Umar, had they been of suspicious character? Have that much faith in our Prophet.
well its not new that Prophet (s.a.w) would be surrounded by people who were not muslims as well...many a times...like people who came up to him (s.a.w) to sign hudaybiyah......what matters is who shud we take our religion from....
 
 Ridiculous. There is a difference b/w people who surrounded the Prophet physically, and those that were his circle of trust. I was clearly referring to the sahaba he trusted, and loved. And it is those sahaba that we take religion from. . . rather than restrict our religion to a favoured, rare few.
 


You are welcome to doubt my personal comments - but I posted authentic ahadith from various sources, that all say the same thing. Not believing in the authencity of those ahadith is another thing altogether, and you should just let me know if you dont agree with thier authencity. Which by the way, are agreed upon by the majority of Muslim scholars.
We??? i doubt bro...u dint answer my question...but its fine..i can understand...btw...by "WE", what do u mean...u mean the deobandis or, berelvis or, sufis or, wahaabis or , salafis etc etc or shafi'i, hanafi, maliki, hanbali etc etc?? please specify??
i mean for u, numbers matter i guess, since u hav translated dat hadith in ure mind in dat way..so please prove to me who are the "MAJORITY" among those groups??i need statistics...
 

By We, I mean all the muslims, who hold tight to the rope of Allah, i.e. Qur'an, Sunnah and Sahih Hadith - and didnt deviate into firqas and sects after the Prophet's demise i.e. Muslims. Btw, a lot of the labels you mentioned, have similar beliefs - except a few really deviated ones. If there is any difference, it is on the label-name, and matters of jurisprudence and fiqh. Most of them do not deny the authentic ahadith, or Sahaba etc.

  
 
The ahadith simply are to set the ummah straight on what 'sect' to follow (none, btw) - the ahadith are to give guidance to the ummah as to which Islam is teh one as taught by Prophet Muhammad - and not invented by ordinary people after his death.
well again u hav tried to cover ure feeling in ure last line, but ya...alhamdulilah we accept every hadith which is inline with quran and reject whichever go against it...and alhamdulillah atleast we dont follow someone like abu hurayra who was even beaten up by Umar for cooking up hadeeth.....alhamdulillah....
 
What feelings have I tried to cover? I have been straight since the start. I repel anyone and any sect that deviates, likes to associate themselves as someone other than a 'Muslim', does not respect and uphold the Qur'an, Sunnah, Hadith. Or cooks up thier own versions of Islam. Not to mention those who are arrogant enough to cast judgemnets and suspicion on the character of sahabah that Prophet Muhammad trusted, and expected us to respect. Which brings to me your repulsion of Abu Hurayrah. He was a man that Prophet Muhammad clearly loved and respected, and whom his peers (i.e other Sahabah respected too.) I would like to follow in Prophet's Muhammad's Sunnah and judgement - and not pretend I know more about Abu Hurayrah from stories today - than the people living in his time did. If you are not amongst those people, than I love you for Allah's sake.
 
 
 
 Who are amongst the members of the household ? Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.
 
 
Okay, so a woman is not a member of the household when she is divorced and goes back to her parents. I agree. Which is why I dont think a divorced spouse has a share in the inheritance anyway. Until a woman remains that person's wife he is part of his family and household. Same applies to the husband. Also, kith and kin does not mean blood relatives. Oh, and why else? Because the Qur'an says so.


 

u r trying to indulge me in a debate of muta, wen i personally think this not a BIG ISSUE...and clarifying this out does not make anybody a good muslim or a bad one......
 

I assure you I have no intention/wish of indulging you in a 'debate' of any sorts, even on Mutaah. However any act that was banned by the Prophet, yet is practised by a muslim - it reflects/says a lot about the nature of his 'Muslimness'

 
I hope you will think on my reply.....

brother..this i guess is a discussion, and its good if we stop looking at who wins or looses this..because i think there are better aims for a discussion than winning or loosing.....
 
 
Since I did reply - I did ponder/think over your post. I agree that this is not a debate, rather a discussion. Hence I was never keeping any points, nor do I expect an outcome; win/loss. Anyway, Jazakallah for the reminder - and may Allah give Hidayat to us all. If you like, we could end it right here.
 
Regards,


Edited by Chrysalis - 16 February 2009 at 5:11am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 17 February 2009 at 5:05am
There were occasions when he said things like 'Had you known what I know, you would be crying" . . .yet he never told them all that stuff did he? Prophetic wisdom, and Allah's Will. But I guess the Shias know better.

There is a difference in the things he wanted to say and the things he dint want to say.....we are talking about him being prevented from saying/conveying something which he had wanted to convey...

I would have gotten him a pen and paper, inshalah - But at the end, the Prophet would only have said something had he wanted to, or decided to, that Allah willed. He could very well have changed his mind.

Alhamdulillah....nice to know you wud have contradicted with umer......secondly ure latter part of ure assumption is baseless...please prove it...

By throwing suspicion and blame upon the character of certain sahaba e.g. Hazrat Umar nauzubillah not letting Prophet Muhammad say something, or refusing to follow his commands - you are inadvertently badmouthing him.

if dats da criteria..then the narrator himself is badmouthing him...

I guess it was another mistake (nauzubillah) of the Prophet, when he included him as an ashrah-e-mubasharah and gave him the prediction to paradise in his lifetime.

tha ashra mubashara hadith has not proven to be authentic....secondly its odd dat u see dat some people were given a "holiday" in this world....

By We, I mean all the muslims, who hold tight to the rope of Allah, i.e. Qur'an, Sunnah and Sahih Hadith - and didnt deviate into firqas and sects after the Prophet's demise i.e. Muslims. Btw, a lot of the labels you mentioned, have similar beliefs - except a few really deviated ones. If there is any difference, it is on the label-name, and matters of jurisprudence and fiqh. Most of them do not deny the authentic ahadith, or Sahaba etc.

are u sure??? well actually the scholars of each of this group are not...surly....because they do see each other diviant..isnt it???..so please specify which group u wud apply to the hadith u hav provided and please give me statistics...

Okay, so a woman is not a member of the household when she is divorced and goes back to her parents. I agree. Which is why I dont think a divorced spouse has a share in the inheritance anyway. Until a woman remains that person's wife he is part of his family and household. Same applies to the husband. Also, kith and kin does not mean blood relatives. Oh, and why else? Because the Qur'an says so.

i hope the brothers of ahlus sunnah wud agree wid each other on inteprating this hadith and then give out a final word....plus....the hadith clearly mentions the "WIVES"...not divorcees they are talking about...

I assure you I have no intention/wish of indulging you in a 'debate' of any sorts, even on Mutaah. However any act that was banned by the Prophet, yet is practised by a muslim - it reflects/says a lot about the nature of his 'Muslimness'

Whatever the Quran says and Whatever the Prophet (s.a.w) is hujjat upon every muslim to follow...since quran clearly mentions that it is allowed, i dont think there is a need of further discussion...


Since I did reply - I did ponder/think over your post. I agree that this is not a debate, rather a discussion. Hence I was never keeping any points, nor do I expect an outcome; win/loss. Anyway, Jazakallah for the reminder - and may Allah give Hidayat to us all. If you like, we could end it right here.

yah...i wud hav loved to end it here...but just let me know which "majority" are you talking about inshallah....and dats wat i want to learn from u.......I hope u r able to specify one. while other being the deviants......if not..then i think we can wrap up one here....

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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 17 February 2009 at 8:39am
Originally posted by asda



There is a difference in the things he wanted to say and the things he dint want to say.....we are talking about him being prevented from saying/conveying something which he had wanted to convey...
 
I see. So you still believe that Prophet Muhammad was vulnerable to being 'prevented' from relating his message. He succumbed to the external pressure, and did not relay his message? (nauzubillah). Strange coming from a belief system who insist that a sahabi like Ali (r.a) is infallible - but the Prophet apparently isnt?


Alhamdulillah....nice to know you wud have contradicted with umer......secondly ure latter part of ure assumption is baseless...please prove it...

You are doing a good job relating the antagonism your sect feels towards sahaba like Hazrat Umar (r.a).

You want me to "prove" to you that Prophet Muhammad had the ability to change his mind and make decisions? oh-kay. So you basically disagree with the statement: " the Prophet would only have said something had he wanted to, or decided to, that Allah willed. He could very well have changed his mind." Correct me if I am wrong.
 

I guess it was another mistake (nauzubillah) of the Prophet, when he included him as an ashrah-e-mubasharah and gave him the prediction to paradise in his lifetime.

tha ashra mubashara hadith has not proven to be authentic....secondly its odd dat u see dat some people were given a "holiday" in this world....


Typical. Since Hazrat Umar is mentioned in the ashrah-e-mubasharah . . . it is not authentic. So basically, Muslim, Bukhari (and the rest) got ahadith correct when they happen to support your argument - but if they go against your argument - they got the ahadith wrong. Pick and choose? Just like the bani israel used to do.
 
Whats odd is that you yourself believe that some people were given a 'holiday' in this world - because they happen to be "blood descendants" of the Prophet.
 

By We, I mean all the muslims, who hold tight to the rope of Allah, i.e. Qur'an, Sunnah and Sahih Hadith - and didnt deviate into firqas and sects after the Prophet's demise i.e. Muslims. Btw, a lot of the labels you mentioned, have similar beliefs - except a few really deviated ones. If there is any difference, it is on the label-name, and matters of jurisprudence and fiqh. Most of them do not deny the authentic ahadith, or Sahaba etc.

are u sure??? well actually the scholars of each of this group are not...surly....because they do see each other diviant..isnt it???..so please specify which group u wud apply to the hadith u hav provided and please give me statistics...

Statistics? for what? for how many people are following Qur'an and Sunnah? Tongue Goodluck getting those stats.

I have already told you. If you are not part of any sect that deviated after Prophet Muhammad's death . . .you are safe.



i hope the brothers of ahlus sunnah wud agree wid each other on inteprating this hadith and then give out a final word....plus....the hadith clearly mentions the "WIVES"...not divorcees they are talking about...

This is one of the ahadith that Muslim "accidentally" got correct, right?
It is futile talk ahadith with you - since you do not agree with all ahadith - and will only talk of the one that you happen to agree with. So if I bring up a hadith that says otherwise, you simply say : it is not authentic. . . just like you did in ur previous post.
 

...since quran clearly mentions that it is allowed, i dont think there is a need of further discussion...

Really? ok. And a significant majority of muslims + thier scholars believe that this ayat is not talking of Mutaah at all - And it is clearly banned. So yeah, no need for further discussion.

i wud hav loved to end it here...but just let me know which "majority" are you talking about inshallah....and dats wat i want to learn from u.......I hope u r able to specify one. while other being the deviants......if not..then i think we can wrap up one here....


All the groups that hold tight to the rope of Allah, i.e. Sahih Hadith + Qur'an + Sunnah are amongst this significant majority. Even if that part is not clear, it is clear that the hadith excludes groups that deviated from Prophet Muhammad's Islam after his death. But ofcourse, you dont believe in the authencity of this hadith . . . so why worry, eh?

 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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asda
 
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Quote asda Replybullet Posted: 18 February 2009 at 1:29am
Originally posted by Chrysalis

You are doing a good job relating the antagonism your sect feels towards sahaba like Hazrat Umar (r.a).

You want me to "prove" to you that Prophet Muhammad had the ability to change his mind and make decisions? oh-kay. So you basically disagree with the statement: " the Prophet would only have said something had he wanted to, or decided to, that Allah willed. He could very well have changed his mind." Correct me if I am wrong.

he could have done anything....but....the point u r missing is dat due to the confusion caused (initiated be umer) the Prophet (s.a.w) got angry and told everyone to go away.....He (s.a.w) had ordered something which was not fulfilled....
Surah al Maidah verse 92 "Obey Allah and Obey his Prophet and worry, and be warned that the Prophet's duty is only to deliver the message clearly"

and...the Prophet (s.a.w) was infallible...no doubt!!!






Typical. Since Hazrat Umar is mentioned in the ashrah-e-mubasharah . . . it is not authentic. So basically, Muslim, Bukhari (and the rest) got ahadith correct when they happen to support your argument - but if they go against your argument - they got the ahadith wrong. Pick and choose? Just like the bani israel used to do.

nah...thats not the criteria for me bro....for me Whatever goes inline with Quran...i will accept that....whatever doesnt....i will not...isnt it simple???

secondly...in the ashra mubashara the narrators were smart enuf to include themselves......well...dats not part of my rebuttal...but just a point to be noted...

the list also include people who were known to sin..people like:
`Abd al-Rahman ibn `Awf  and Sa`d [ibn Abi Waqqas]....I am not sure wat did ibn awf do....but quite sure about sa'd bin abi waqas...to add to that there are other prominent sahaabis such as Hazrat Bilal (a.s), and Imam Hasan (a.s) and Imam Hussain (a.s) excluded when the Prophet (s.a.w) has clearly stated that Imam Hassan (a.s) and Imam Hussain (a.s) are the leader of the youths of paradise.....furthermore there are few among the list who had actually faught a war against each other.....and surly one was on Haq and others not...so those who are not are responsible for all the killings in thos wars......so the hadith contradicts a lot of historical facts....and lastly, there are also people on this list who went against the Quran....or someone who the Prophet (s.a.w) had stated to be with the Quran...


Whats odd is that you yourself believe that some people were given a 'holiday' in this world - because they happen to be "blood descendants" of the Prophet.
nah...they were not given a "holiday"....Like the Prophets (a.s) they had many tests to give......please give me one incident where the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) went against the orders of Prophet (s.a.w) or preached something which was against what Prophet (s.a.w) said.......one incident....come on...u have 14 biographies to research on...just one needed!!!!!
 
[Quote]

Statistics? for what? for how many people are following Qur'an and Sunnah? Tongue Goodluck getting those stats.

I have already told you. If you are not part of any sect that deviated after Prophet Muhammad's death . . .you are safe.

[Quote]
Well I want to know who are the "MAJORITY" that clearly follows the QURAN AND SUNNAH according to you....because I am sure that u think u r on the right path....so obviosly u must have some statistics to decide which faith are you following....because u surly have to choose one...isnt it?? because the "OTHERS" are then DEVIANT......i am not saying this on myslelf...here is one example by a deobandi writing on berelvi's:
http://www.geocities.com/muwa7id/barelvis.html
"
The Barelvis are a deviant sect founded by one Ahmad Rida Khan from Bareilly, India. Its founder was born in the year 1856 and died in the year 1921 CE. His father's name was Naqi Ali Khan and his grandfather's name was Rida Ali Khan (Tadhkira Ulama-e-Hind, vol.1, p. 1). The Barelvi, Ahmad Rida Khan was named as Amman Miyan by his mother while his father called him Ahmad Miyan."

and here is another ahlus sunnah website (i am assuming deobandi) which declares sufis as "deviant and not following the quran and sunnah"
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=278&main_cat_id=37
"
Sufism embraces countless different sects. Fundamentally, they are innovators both in there origin and in their name. They are not complying with the Qur’ân, the Sunnah and the practice of the Companions at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and after his death. "


likewise I can present you many other articles/fatwas where each of the group considers the other one who is not following the quran and sunnah.......since there is no "ijma" on who is right...i dont know how did you find who is the majority and started believing in them....and since you have based your belief on being a majority, I am sure u have statistics...please provide me some...and answer a simple question "WHO ARE AMONG THESE WHO ARE FOLLOWING THE QURAN AND SUNNAH??"



This is one of the ahadith that Muslim "accidentally" got correct, right?
It is futile talk ahadith with you - since you do not agree with all ahadith - and will only talk of the one that you happen to agree with. So if I bring up a hadith that says otherwise, you simply say : it is not authentic. . . just like you did in ur previous post.
i hav already told you what is the criteria of me accepting hadith...i dont care if it is bukhari (a book of ahluss sunnah) or if I am reading Al-Kafi (an hadith book of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) and his family followed by Shia of Rasululah (s.a.w))....my criteria remains da same...
 

Really? ok. And a significant majority of muslims + thier scholars believe that this ayat is not talking of Mutaah at all - And it is clearly banned. So yeah, no need for further discussion.

just to wind this up....i will give u a link which actually proves how truthful u are:

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=682&Itemid=59

like i said, Quran cannot be faulty...hadith since it can hav fallable narrators..it can be....




All the groups that hold tight to the rope of Allah, i.e. Sahih Hadith + Qur'an + Sunnah are amongst this significant majority. Even if that part is not clear, it is clear that the hadith excludes groups that deviated from Prophet Muhammad's Islam after his death. But ofcourse, you dont believe in the authencity of this hadith . . . so why worry, eh?

lol....i like ure tone...but sadly its much more debate like...please calm down.....i hav only asked a simple question...atleast one of them is not deviant according to u...

 


I hope u will help me wrap up this discussion with ure next post by providing me answer to a question i asked..

regards
asda



Edited by asda - 18 February 2009 at 1:33am
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