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Message Icon Topic: The problem with SOME women Post Reply Post New Topic
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Suleyman
 
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Quote Suleyman Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2005 at 12:04am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

And, brother Israfil, I wanted to coment on your thread but just did not get a chance so far.

1. Women are not practical. They see some little things in too much depth, and ignore other little stuff, which may be bearing significance. When a man looks at the entire picture to conclude the message, a woman can focus only on certain aspects.

2. Not all women who are complaining are in a position to get up and bring the changes themselves. Accept it or not, in many, many societies, it is still a man's world, and it will always remain like this. A woman is either brought up to accept or because of her circimstances she cannot solve her problems. Thus the only thing that she can do is to complain ... it is a helpless complain. This is what I think. May be you are not refering to the same complians as I have addressed, and in such case, please clarify.

3. The prophet has said that a woman is like a curved rib, if you try to straighten her, it will break [and there is more to the hadith] ... so she is not like men, she is not created like men. She perceives differently, she thinks differently and then she reacts differently. Men need to understand this as much as women do, to understand why there are differences in attitudes.

4. It is this difference, that makes a woman soft, kind, generous, and patient. Therefore, when at one hand you appreciate the good side of a woman, on the other try to understand why these qualities are there ... it could be that you discover some bad stuff hidden within, which is nevertheless an essential core element, helping to shape up the exterior.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Very nice description...



Edited by Suleyman
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2005 at 12:12am
BY the way, I would be happy if any person brings up any hadith which specifically says that a man does betrays his wife if he commits intercourse outside marriage and I will end the arguement from my side. 
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2005 at 12:16am
There are some cultures where men think oogling is their birth right, so covered or not covered, some people just wont abstain


Its the same everywhere, not just some culture. And a woman who dresses obscenely drives greater attention towards herself (that is what she wants, I think).
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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Lehua
 
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Quote Lehua Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2005 at 1:15pm

Zaman,

You are correct, some women dress a certian way to get attention from men.  However it is the choice of the man to either lower his gaze or to make comments and "oogle" at her.  The man that stares and comments doesn't go without a sin just because a woman is dressed obscene.

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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2005 at 4:32pm

As'Salaamu Alaikum Sister Nausheen,

I agree with what you have said in your explanation but if I may let me rephrase what I truly meant to say because I felt my original post was taken out of context. Insha'allah I won't watse your time with this. I believe that form the other half of the circle of human life. the other side which the man occupies allwos the unity of both men and women to come together without this humanity couldnm't sustain its existence. But if we go more in depth and look at the social infranstructure we see that within the Muslim community there is a sense of "coming out." What I mean is that some Muslim women in our community are now coming out with the ideas of "equality wheras the premise of equality is already stated in Al-Qur'an. We see such women like Irshad Manji who, through her pwnm experiences tends to generalize Islam and some of its adherents. This is the same mindset that certain non-Muslims have when obserivng Muslims through news media or movies.

Along with "coming out" there is the idea of westernizing  the mindset of a Muslimah. First and foremost the culture of western society is in it of itself, a culture which includes: ideologies, beliefs etc. I mentioned Afghan women because all of a sudden its an issue. I believe Kim said earlier that womens rights movement has been concerned with the issue long before, but I believe that in mainstream society the subject is new to the light to many people because this is when Islam is really introduced to society especially here in the States.

The problem I see in westernb infiltration is not the motive, but the lack of sensitivity and education of Islam. What I mean here is that to help a group of women strive to their plateau and to give them their independence and freedom using your "idea" on how to get there I believe that in doing so requires some sensitivity on how going about that. To say "you don't need to cover yourself to hide your beauty" is (1) Telling her to not accept her duty as a Muslim

(2) Helping her transgress from her religious faith (3) interpreting the idea of what "beauty" is. Not saying that that is the idea the Womens rights group but my main point is that in helping the people you must first understand the culture and to understand THAT culture you must understand the religious faith because the issue is more delicate.

I believe the struggle for the equality of women is good especially in a world where most of the men in power do not want to see a female leader. But at the same time we must come to the understanding that equal power is idealistic in this reality is not realistic. The same with all races coming together and extinguishing the "idea of culture." Because culture is so important in our society it would be very difficult to not want to identify ourselves with our culture, and although it would be more idealistic to refer ourselves as human rather black, white, or Arab its not a realistic picture. I do believe that equality is realistic but in this time I believe that its a hard possibility because culture tends to prevent this from becoming a reality.

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Khadija1021
 
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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2005 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by Lehua

Zaman,

You are correct, some women dress a certian way to get attention from men.  However it is the choice of the man to either lower his gaze or to make comments and "oogle" at her.  The man that stares and comments doesn't go without a sin just because a woman is dressed obscene.

Assalamu Alaikum

You are absolutely right.  Allah did not give men permission to gaze at woman anymore than he gave women permission to gaze at men.  And, yes, ZamanH, there is a ayat that states that both men and women BOTH must lower their gaze and protect their modesty.  Even though it would be much easier if the entire world were to act in accordance with Allah's Laws, regardless of how the rest of the world behaves, Muslims have been instructed on how to behave.  There are just as many men walking around bearing their all as there are women so it's not like it's simply easier for women to deal with than men.  We can't sit around and scream for the world to change so that we can be better Muslims.  We have been warned that we will be tested.  A pious Muslim will lower his/her gaze no matter how tempting the world is because that is what Allah has asked them do do.  Why?  Because Allah knows best!

PAZ, Khadija

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2005 at 7:55pm

In addition to Sister Khadija's response to lower the gaze is in comparison with the Buddihst philosophy of the rejection of materialism. We do not know the external beauty of life. To appreciate the full beauty of a woman, a human being is to appreciate the intangible which is her mind and spirit indeed!

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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2005 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Lehua

Zaman,

You are correct, some women dress a certian way to get attention from men.  However it is the choice of the man to either lower his gaze or to make comments and "oogle" at her.  The man that stares and comments doesn't go without a sin just because a woman is dressed obscene.

Yes, he does commits a sin. My point was, the girl loses all right to complain.

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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