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Groups – Men (Brothers)
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Culture & Community : Groups – Men (Brothers)
Message Icon Topic: The problem with SOME women Post Reply Post New Topic
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2005 at 9:11pm

Anad again by what you say sounds like you condone them...hmmm

 

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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2005 at 9:19pm

Zaman, do you hold men to the same standard?  Do you think a man who has lost his virginity before marriage cannot be a good husband or be a trusted husband? 

As I had said earlier in other thread, such a man is a bad man, therefore, he should be considered a bad husband. According to the Quran, such men should marry women who themselves indulge in fornication.

Also, as I have earlier said in other thread, unlike woman, a man does not betray his family by commiting adultery (he cheats another man, though).

 And how can you judge a group of people where you have no basis to judge?

I don't think that I have "no basis to judge". I have know much about Western society through Western media itself. Let me put it this way, I believe people, in general, are equally selfish everywhere (though, historically Westerners have been more brutal comapared to others), but Western way of life does not conform to Islam.

And concerning the the equality of gender, equality does not imply identicality. To me equality means equal/identical rights to live and to be happy. Society should not prefer life/happiness of one person to that of another person (who has not acted unislamically, of course).



Edited by ZamanH
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2005 at 9:31pm

Zaman, I have to question why not you decide to respond and why not before?

I didn't come online for one week.



Edited by ZamanH
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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Lehua
 
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Quote Lehua Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2005 at 9:58am

Zaman,

As it is stated in the Holy Book . . .

     The believers must (eventually) win through,those who humble themselves in thier prayers; who avoid vain talk;who are active in deeds of charity; who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hand possess, for (in their case) they are free from blame, but those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors,- (Quran 23:1-7) (Translation from Yusuf Ali, Islamicity.com)

To my understanding, this states that if a man should have desires that are outside of his marriage or capitves, he is a transgressor.  Which is not only limited to the desired woman's husband but to the community, that includes his wife/wives.  And if it is not a transgression apon his wife, why is it required of a man to get the permission of his wife to take on another wife?

I agree with you that equality does not mean identicality, but we have to be careful of where we draw that line.  An unislamic life is one of unhappiness and despair and no one should ever prefer it.



Edited by Lehua
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Khadija1021
 
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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2005 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by Lehua

To my understanding, this states that if a man should have desires that are outside of his marriage or capitves, he is a transgressor.  Which is not only limited to the desired woman's husband but to the community, that includes his wife/wives.  And if it is not a transgression apon his wife, why is it required of a man to get the permission of his wife to take on another wife?

Assalamu Alaikum

 

Lehua, actually, it is not a requirement that a man get permission from his wife to take another wife.  It is only recommended that he show her kindness and respect by talking to her about it before he does so.  The problem with ZamanH's argument is that he holds the misconception that men cannot commit adultery.  He bases his argument on his belief that a man takes a woman into "HIS" home to live and because it is his home, some how that lets him off the moral hook regarding adultery.  So, if he has sex with another woman, he doesn't commit adultery, however, he does cheat but the person he cheats is not his wife but rather the father or husband of the women he had sex with.   What ZamanH doesn't take into account is that nothing we own is ours except through the grace of All-Might Allah from whom we merely borrow what we have while we are in this life.  What ZamanH perceives to be his is not really his at all, it is an illusion he uses to justify his position on this issue.  He also believes that if he took a second wife, that he could simply bring her into his home to live with his other wife (who by the way he feel no obligation to even speak with about this situation) who would have no say in the matter.  However, he is mistaken.  In the Qur'an, it states that he must treat his wives the same or not take another at all.  How can bringing another women into the home where the first wife have already developed a life be just?  He would be telling hiw first wife that she had to have less than what he had given her when she agreed to marry him which is not what the Qur’an says he can do.  To be just, he would have to provide a separate home for the second wife unless the two women agreed to share the same home.  All of the Prophet's (pbuh) wives had their own homes.

With respect to adultery and the Qur'an, if ZamanH were correct in his assumption that men cannot commit adultery than why did Allah say to punish both men and women who commit illegal sex by giving them each 80 lashes?  He didn't say that the punishment was merely for women.  And why did Allah tell both men and women to guard their chastity?  And why didn't Allah allow unmarried men to have sex with their salves instead of telling them to marry a believing slave if they could not control their desire for sex?  And why did Allah say that it was better if the unmarried man waited instead of marrying the believing slave?  The Qur'an is full of ayats regarding the issue of adultery and within those ayats, it is clear that men are just as capable of committing adultery as are women.

 

PAZ, Khadija

 



Edited by Khadija1021
Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2005 at 9:28am
Originally posted by Israfil

Anad again by what you say sounds like you condone them...hmmm

I supported them, its strange you didn't get that at first.

Although, Taliban were staunch in theri beliefs, they did allow free religious discourse and were freely influenced by it. If at all their treatment of women was unislamic, they would have certainly mend thier ways if they were convinced about it.

Only fault I see in them is that they were not pragmatic in dealing with the Northern Alliance and granting them autonomy. Also, that would have helped them to establish diplomatic relation with Iran.

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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Khadija1021
 
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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2005 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by ZamanH

Originally posted by Israfil

Anad again by what you say sounds like you condone them...hmmm

I supported them, its strange you didn't get that at first.

Although, Taliban were staunch in theri beliefs, they did allow free religious discourse and were freely influenced by it. If at all their treatment of women was unislamic, they would have certainly mend thier ways if they were convinced about it.

Only fault I see in them is that they were not pragmatic in dealing with the Northern Alliance and granting them autonomy. Also, that would have helped them to establish diplomatic relation with Iran.

ZamanH, "if at all"...are you suggesting that maybe they weren't "unIslmic" in their treatment of women or that it's okay because that was the only thing they were "unIslamic" about?  "...if they weren't convinced about it?"  What then?  How long should these Muslim women be denied their Allah given rights?  What, as long as it doesn't affect you because you are a man, it's okay?  Wake up ZamanH, no "Sincere Muslim" can stand by and let this happen.  Wrong is wrong and any Muslim that stands by and allows others to deny what is rightly given by Allah to any Muslim, be it man or woman, does a grave injustice to Islam.  Maybe if Muslims would start standing up for one another, we wouldn't have to fight off outsiders.

PAZ, Khadija

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2005 at 7:25pm
Wow do we not see the extremist show its ugly face here!
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