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 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Culture & Community : Groups – Men (Brothers)
Message Icon Topic: The problem with SOME women Post Reply Post New Topic
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rosemary
 
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Quote rosemary Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2005 at 12:38am

If I may interject here, what we Western women saw, and were so concerned about was not women beomg treated as good Muslim women shoud, but women begging on the streets to feed their children when NO OTHER MEANS were available to them BECAUSE they were not allowed to have any other source of income.  THAT was what bothered me. 

I do realize that my above comments do not have much to do with the original post, other than the comments about Afghan women, but I thought it was appropriate because fhe OP raised the subject of Afghan woemn..........

That being said, Western women have long preferred to have a female GP let alone a female OB/GYN.  Any influx of female Muslum Physicians jut increases the chances........

But getting back to the OP point, I do tend to agree.  I have marvelled to see young Muslimahs hanging out at the local mall, in the streets wearing the hijab and eating bacon double cheese burgers from McDonalds.  The impression one gets is that is it all has more to do with culture than religion.  Culture is more easily adaptive.  Religion is not supposed to be.

Rose

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ummziba
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Quote ummziba Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2005 at 5:22am
Originally posted by rosemary

I have marvelled to see young Muslimahs hanging out at the local mall, in the streets wearing the hijab and eating bacon double cheese burgers from McDonalds.  The impression one gets is that is it all has more to do with culture than religion.  Culture is more easily adaptive.  Religion is not supposed to be.

Peace to you Rosemary,

Yes, you are so right!  That is the problem, "religion is not supposed to be".  Unfortunately today, we see some young Muslims slipping away from their faith while still wearing the outward signs.  Surely these young women who wear a headscarf but eat bacon have not been properly taught the true meaning of hijab (or have rejected it and why they wear the scarf is beyond me).

They obviously don't understand the true meaning of being a Muslim either.  A Muslim is one who submits themselves completely to Allah in everything, their worship, their thoughts and most importantly, their deeds.

Unfortunately, scenes like the one you describe, give the wrong impression about Islam to non-Muslims.  But then, think about it like this: how many "Christians" do you know who go to church every Sunday, give to charity, don't drink or gamble and so on?  These are all tenents of Christianity. 

There are varying degrees of faith to be found in any faith community.  None of us should judge a religion by its adherents (because humans are so fallible), but rather by its tenents.

Peace, ummziba.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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Quote Tarek Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2005 at 3:21pm
assalam ou 'aleykoum,

what a good forum I have found I am so glad to see that there are sisters and brothers from all the world and that I will exchange posts with them, mashAllah. But let's come back to the topic of this post. Yes nowadays our Ummah is changing, perhaps not in the good way perhaps not in the bad way Allah ou a'lem, may Allah guide us ameen but for you sister rosemary, when you see sisters who put the headscarf and eat double beacon from mc donald's, please tell her that it is haram to eat that sandwiwh that she is a muslima and that she must eat halal food... When we see sisters or brothers in the bad way we must alert them it is the dikr. And I want to add that woment and men are equal, Allah create them equal a proof, there are the same number of words men and women int the Quran el karim. But men and women can't have the same rights, there are things that men can do and not the women and there are things that women can go contrary to the men. And the equality is established on these facts.


Oh Allah please guide us and take us away from the way of the shaytane Ameen

Peace to you sisters and brothers Ma'asalam

Tarek
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Quote Tarek Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2005 at 3:23pm
And sorry for the the mistakes I have done in my first post it is too late in France and I am tired 
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2005 at 1:10am

As far as I know, the girl who doesn't loses her virginity before marriage is an exception in the West. In the Middle-East, just the reverse is true.

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2005 at 9:43pm

Originally posted by ZamanH

As far as I know, the girl who doesn't loses her virginity before marriage is an exception in the West. In the Middle-East, just the reverse is true.

 

Assalamu Alaikum,

 

Brother ZamanH,

 

It is evident by what you say here and what you have said in other posts that you do not like westerns.  In another post, the one you started titled “Why (and how) women cheat?” you referred to America as “the land of pigs and whores."  In was hard for me to even decide to make a comment to your post because I know that by simply responding to it, you may attack my character.  However, I think that it is unfair for you to compare women from the West and Middle-East this way.  It is like comparing apples and oranges…they may both be fruit, but they definitely are not the same.  If in the west there were laws that entailed sever punishment for having sex outside of marriage or the threat of being killed by a male family member existed, it is highly likely that the rate of premarital sex in the west would be low as that in the Middle East.  You assume that because a woman is not a virgin at the time of marriage that she is unable to be a good wife, a loving mother or even pious in her faith.  You have no right to judge why and how a woman loses her virginity.  There are many cultural factors here that you refuse to even look at.  To you, a woman who has lost her virginity is simply a whore.  But Allah knows all things, He is merciful and He is most forgiving to those who repent. 

 

It is not the fault of children in western cultures that they have not been raised in Muslim families.  All children are at the merci of their parents and society no matter what corner of the world they were born in.  If you take those exact same women from the Middle East and exchange them for the women in the families in the west and visa versa, guess who the virgins would be?  Did you know that according to the Qur’an that even a prostitute who repents to Allah and then bows and submits her will to His Will is as chase as any other woman at that time…despite the fact that she is not a virgin and that at one point she sold her body?  Furthermore, where in the Qur’an does it state that in order for a man to marry a woman she must be a virgin?  Tell me this, how many of Muhammad’s (pbuh) wives was virgins at the time he married them?  Even when Muhammad (pbuh) spoke of what is the best quality to look for in a wife, he never mentioned virginity…her wealth, her family status, her beauty and her religion were the only characters that He mentioned.  He said that a man should chose a woman based upon her religion or otherwise he would be a loser.  (Hadith 027, Bukhari is where you can find the Hadith which I am referring to.)

 

Also, not all western women are feminist and not all western feminist are out of line with what the Qur’an states.  You are too hasty in your judgment because you already had a preconceived notion of what the “west” is through and through.  The definition of feminism is “Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.”  This makes Allah the first and ultimate feminist because Allah gave “social, political, and economic equality” to all men and women in the Qur’an.  Furthermore, this means that all faithful Muslims (both men and women) are feminist as well, that is, they believe in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes.  However, because of two social problems not all women experience the equality that Allah has ordained for them.  1.) Only part of the world population has embraced Islam, and 2.) Even in societies where Islam is the predominate faith, social customs and traditions have robbed many women of their Allah given rights.   Why are you so down with these women?  Why don't you come down on the men that have created societies in which women had to fight to get what Allah says is rightfully theirs?

 

We have got to stop with this dogmatic stereotyping of others; it is wrecking havoc in the world.  Inshallah we all will see the clear signs of Allah and begin to look at the world with more merci and tolerance.  This doesn’t mean I am asking anyone to condom wrong actions, but to say that because some in a country, faith, or group have committed wrong actions and then slip into the conclusion that everyone in that country, faith or group has done the same is simply wrong.   Allah will give every soul it’s due on the Day of Rising “whatever its due, whatever it earned, and none shall be dealt with unjustly.” (3:161)  So, why can’t we do the same and judge a person by his/her actions and not by some dogmatic stereotypical mindset we have about a country, faith or group?  When we do this, we become the wrongdoers.

Then you are the people who are killing one another and expelling a group among you from their homes, ganging up against them in wrongdoing and enmity. Yet if they are brought to you as captives, you ransom them, when it was forbidden for you to expel them in the first place! Do you, then, believe in one part of the Book and reject the other? What repayment will there be for any of you who do that except disgrace in this world? And on the Day of Rising, they will be returned to the harshest of punishments. Allah is not unaware of what you do. (2:85)

PAZ, Khadija

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2005 at 6:26am

Originally posted by Khadija1021

In was hard for me to even decide to make a comment to your post because I know that by simply responding to it, you may attack my character. 

Walai Kum As Salaam,

You need not have worried. I consciously try to keep off from personally attacking others as long as I am not attacked first.

Originally posted by Khadija1021

You assume that because a woman is not a virgin at the time of marriage that she is unable to be a good wife, a loving mother or even pious in her faith.

I hope you understand that she cannot, at least,  be expected/trusted to be a good wife (just in case, you agree that women who commits adultery  can't be a good wife).

Originally posted by Khadija1021

It is not the fault of children in western cultures that they have not been raised in Muslim families.  All children are at the merci of their parents and society no matter what corner of the world they were born in.

Yes, I agree. My point was such a state of affairs (i.e widespread fornication) is highly unislamic (and is worse than most of the other unislamic actions/scenarios). And I believe Western feminism is directly a major cause of it.

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2005 at 7:04am
Although the Taliban were puritanical, they were not known to be corrupt. They banned production of poppy under their regime which resumed after they were gone. They established law and order in Afagahinistan. Women in Afaghanistan are suffering more because lawlessness and disorder than they did under the "harsh" Taliban rule because of the religious laws. And the rule of the central govt., presently does not exist beyond Kabul.

Edited by ZamanH
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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