Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Groups – Men (Brothers)
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Culture & Community : Groups – Men (Brothers)
Message Icon Topic: The problem with SOME women Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 13 Next >>
Author Message
Lameese
Female 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 April 2002
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 307
Quote Lameese Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:02am

Wow Israfil! Your arrogance astounds me!

And no MOCKBA  I will not take that back.

IP IP Logged
Israfil
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 September 2003
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3984
Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:14am
Lameese how bout me showing MOCKBA your remarks towards me calling me stupid or what not this is IC not kindergarden grow up!
IP IP Logged
Lameese
Female 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 April 2002
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 307
Quote Lameese Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:17am

Originally posted by Israfil

Lameese how bout me showing MOCKBA your remarks towards me calling me stupid or what not this is IC not kindergarden grow up!

 

Stop Pm'ing me and I will stop telling you about your character!

Lameese

IP IP Logged
Israfil
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 September 2003
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3984
Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2005 at 10:18am

I didn't know that you can hear babies on this website, the last message I sent was my last and this is my last speaking here. You can now complain all you want Sister Godspeed.

IP IP Logged
Khadija1021
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 30 June 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 530
Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:36pm

Assalamu Alaikum

 

Brother Israfil, I realize I’m a woman and that your post was intended for brothers; however, I think I have some insight into why your post received such a heated response.

 

First, regardless of whether you meant it to happen or not, your choice of thread heading was bound to get some reaction.  This does not imply that I think it deserved what it got.  However, at the very least, the title was enough to attract the attention of the sisters (women) of the forum group.  I’m sure the same thing would have happened if a sister (woman) on here had made a thread with the heading “The problem with SOME men.”  It is only natural for people to be interested in what those of the opposite sex are saying about their gender.  It, also, appears to be the case that brothers respond to threads in the “sisters” section with some regularity.  In general, I don’t find anything wrong or offensive about brothers replying to sisters’ posts or sisters replying to brothers’ post since in the Qur’an it says:

 

“The believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers practice regular charity and obey Allah and His apostle. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power Wise.” (Qur’an 9: 71)

All of use are called upon to help in the good of Islam and to fight against that which is evil.  However, the manner in which we offer our help is just as important as the offer of help itself.  Allah does not want us to ridicule one another (Qur’an 49:11) nor should we react out of rage. (Qur'an, 3:134; 42:37)

Second, I see many people reacting instead of responding with clear reason and a sincere desire to be a positive contributor to the discussion.  This is not an isolated incident either.  I know it isn’t always easy to respond with the gentleness and merci that Allah commands of us (Qur’an 3:159), especially when we feel that someone has taken a jab at something we feel strongly about; however, sometimes we feel strongly about an issue in a very personal way that really has nothing to do with the intentions of the person who made the post.  Reacting this way could be the result of unresolved issue from our past; it could be that we feel very strongly about a particular issue or cause; or it might even be that we feel personally attacked.  More often than not, we don’t stop and think about our reactions, we simply bring out our “soap box” along with all the ammunition we have stored away in our “let’s get even” closet.  We feel righteous in our actions and, because of this, we feel justified and vindicated in whatever comes out of our mouths (in this case, off the tips of our fingers) at the time.

No, I’m not advocating for a “people pleasing” mindset.  I don’t think that we should simply smile and agree with everything that is posted.  However, I am hoping that as sisters and brothers of faith in Allah, we will start approaching each other in a manner that is pleasing to Allah.   For the sake of this discussion, I would like to list some of the qualities that are ascribed to believers in the Qur’an.

·         Turn to Allah for help (8:62)

·         Show integrity and are just (5:8)

·         Are respectful (4:86)

·         Are gentle and merciful (3:159)

·         Are humble (25:63)

·         Are deeply and genuinely concerned for each other (59:10)

·         Avoid disputes among themselves (4:59)

·         Are tolerant  (7:199)

·         Avoid wrong, and when angered, are forgiving (Qur’an 42:37)

·         Turn away from worthless talk (23:3)

·         Are not overwhelmed by rage. (42:37)

·         Do not ridicule, find fault or insult one another. (Qur’an 49:11)

Given the above list of qualities, I think it more than fair to say that, as believers, we have certain responsibilities when it comes to submitting posts to the forum.  If we are starting a new post, let us reflect upon the topic and our intentions for wanting to discuss it.  Let us turn to Allah for help so that as we write, we do so with integrity, respect, gentleness, humility and a deep concern for one another.  When we read posts, if they stir within us anger or rage, let us take the time to reflect and ask ourselves what is truly at center of our reactions.  In making our responses, let us turn to Allah for help so that we do not respond with rage, ridicule, fault finding or insults.  Let us not engage in worthless talk by veering off the path that Allah has clearly laid for us.  Let us pray for the ability to be tolerant and to be just in our words before we allow ourselves to click the post icon instead of reacting from our gut.  It is far better to take care with what we say than to have someone else have to point out our wrongs.  And although it is never wrong to apologize for hurting someone’s feelings, it is far better to act in a manner that does not lead to the need for apologies in the first place.  Allah commands us to be forgiving; however, the best time to forgive is before we speak so that our words will come out in a manner that is productive instead of harmful.

Third, the issue you bring up in your thread really isn’t about “the problem with SOME women;” but rather it’s about the problem with modernism seeping into Islam.  There is no doubt that this is taking place and as so, it is an excellent topic for SERIOUS discussion.  However, looking at this problem merely from one aspect leads to serious problems and turns the issue into a gender issue instead of staying focused on the real issue.  A topic such as this (modernism’s impact on Islam in the 21st Century) deserves serious consideration and minds that are not going to allow the discussion to be reduced to a gender war.  I’m not saying that feminism has not had a negative impact on Islam; however, I’m also not going to ignore the fact that it has, in some respects, had a positive impact as well. 

To embark upon such a topic without discussing the negative impact that “modern” brothers or the impact that male dominated oppressive cultures and traditions have played in the current state of affairs in Islam is preposterous.  Extreme reactions (such as modern feminism) are always a counter reaction to extreme actions (such as oppressive cultures and traditions)…they don’t evolve in a vacuum.  The problem with these extreme behaviors is that when they come from outside influences, they do not necessarily help the situation.  The reason for this is that most often, outsiders think the solution to the problem is the way they see best to solve the problem.  Many times they react to the extreme conditions and treat the whole system as if it gave rise to the problem instead of having a sincere desire to find the root of the problem.  In doing so, they usually reject the entire system and go about trying to replace it with an entirely new system (i.e., their system).  I truly believe this is what we currently see happening with the non-Islamic society’s treatment of Islam.  They are not judging Islam based on what is written in the Qur’an, but rather, by what they see happening in the world.  They are not Muslims, nor in most cases do they care to understand Islam, so they don’t know that the oppression and evil they see are the fault of cultures and traditions that are not sanctioned by the Qur’an. Furthermore, because they lack knowledge regarding Islam, they wrongly judge what they see.  Such is the case when a feminist considers wearing hijabb to be oppressive.  Instead of arguing that in some cases it is oppressive (i.e., in cases where a woman is forced to wear it), they argue that wearing hijabb is oppressive in all cases.  Their argument becomes one of absurdity when we consider what it means.  If wearing hijabb is oppressive in all cases, then Allah is an oppressor because it is Allah who is our rightful protector and who have made it a requirement that we wear hijabb.  This is absurd, and it makes a mockery of Allah.  Furthermore, if we allow those who want to “liberate” us from hijabb to be successful, then they will become the oppressors.  I say this because once they rip the hijabbs from our heads; they will be as guilty as those they point their fingers at because regardless of what they believe, there are thousands upon thousands of sisters who wear their hijabb out of their obedience to Allah and not because it is forced upon them.  Hence, if we are denied the right to wear it, then we are as oppressed as those that are forced to wear it.

Forth, I know I might get a lot of flack for saying this; however, I truly believe that part of the problem lies within the Islamic community itself.  Allah warns us repeatedly not to deviate or make innovations to the Qur’an and Hadiths; however, it is plain to see that there are deviations and innovations within Islam due to cultures and traditions in every corner of the globe.  Deviations and innovations are not a new phenomenon to Islam.  If the west is making demands on Muslims to bend (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot), is it really any different that a Muslim community in India or Pakistan or Syria or Afghanistan (this list of countries was not meant as a finger pointer, it is merely a random list of countries that have large Muslim communities and was not meant as a means to call attention to some and not others) which bends the laws of Allah to suit the whims and desires of their own culture and traditions?  The answer is NO.  It only appears to be different because the west is a modern day invasion whereas the other invasions are not longer perceived as such because their deviations and innovations have been assimilated within the fabric of Muslim life within those communities. 

Am I saying that we should allow for this western invasion to happen?  No, we should not.  However, as we are taking stock of this new invasion, we should also take stock of past invasions and start making demands to eradicate the wrong that has seeped into Islam by those cultures and traditions as well.  If we strive to fight injustices no matter where they come from…be it east or west…from within or without…then not only will we improve the state of Islam, we will also show the world that we can solve our own problems. 

We, the believers of Islam, need to start doing work that will help strengthen the deen of those who have one foot in and one foot out of Islam.  Yes, I am speaking of Mu’min.  Do you think for one minute that those who are against Islam turn to true Muslims when they want to show an example of “Islamic” behavior?  No, they do not; hence, we need to be a constraint reminder to those who have lost their way in Islam as to what the right way is.  We need to speak out when we see injustices done by those who claim to be Mulsims.  We much continue to invite them to return to Islam and join us as brothers and sisters instead of keeping company with the unbelievers.  We need to be more active in our communities so that the world begins to see that there is more to Islam than the negative picture the media portrays.  We should remember that Allah commands such behavior of us:

“(They are) those who, if We establish them firmly on the earth, will perform prayer and give alms, and command what is right and forbid what is wrong. The end result of all affairs is with Allah.” (Qur'an, 22:41)

“Ward off evil with what is better. We know very well what they express.” (Qur'an, 23:96)

”A good action and a bad action are not the same. Repel the bad with something better and, if there is enmity between you and someone else, he will be like a bosom friend.” (Qur'an, 41:34)

If we submit our will to Allah, we strive (with the help, blessing and merci of Allah) to create a true Islamic community.  Allah says:

“Let there be a community among you who call to the good, and enjoin the right, and forbid the wrong. They are the ones who have success.” (Qur'an, 3:104)

By definition, this community can be none other than the community of true believers and because it is, it is every brother’s and every sister’s duty to participation in the righting of the wrong because Allah said that we are “…protectors one of another…” (Qur’an 9:71)  This is not the job of the few, the wealthy, or of a particular gender.  It is the job of each and every true believer.   And in being steadfast to this task…this jihad (and I don’t mean this in the media’s negative sense)… we are rewarded by Allah.

“They will be given their reward twice over because they have been steadfast and because they ward off the bad with the good and give from what we have provided for them.” (Qur'an, 28:54)

Allah is Al-Musta'an (The One Who is Called Upon For Help), Al-Hakim (The Wise), Al-Fasel (He Who distinguishes in the best way), Al-Hadi (The Guide), Al-Mufee (He Who keeps His Word).  Let us strive to Submit to His Will because isn’t that what it means to be a member of Islam?

PAZ

P.S. I edited to get rid of some of my typos...I need a proof reader.



Edited by Khadija1021
Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
IP IP Logged
ummziba
Female  Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1158
Quote ummziba Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2005 at 4:10am

Assalamu alaikum,

Very excellent post Sister Khadija!  I might just add that without facial expression or tone of voice, the written word is often misunderstood.  We all have to be more careful in reading posts before we reply!

Peace, ummziba.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
IP IP Logged
Khadija1021
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 30 June 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 530
Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2005 at 7:01am

Assalamu Alaikum,

Thank you for your kind words Sister Ummziba.  When I feel passionate about an issue, I type my response and then I let it sit for a time and come back to it at which time I go over it again with a conscious effort to remove words and phases that my be hurtful to others.  If I am still unable to find words that are not “biting”, I step away from it a second time to reflect on what is going on inside of me and ask Allah to help guide me before I return to try again.  I may not be able to be 100% successful; however, I know that Allah knows I have made a diligent attempt to not bring harm to others.  I have, on more than one occasion, literally cried after reading some of the comments on this forum, and I’m not talking about comments that have been directed towards me.  It hurts because I feel the pain and see the damage it causes even if the harsh words were not directed towards me.  I really need a place like IC because I don’t have a Muslim community to turn to for support so I will continue to read and post, and to grab the box of tissue when necessary.  But most important of all, I will continue to ask Allah to guide in on the Right Path.

PAZ

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
IP IP Logged
ZamanH
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar
Account Suspended

Joined: 21 July 2004
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 448
Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2005 at 7:18pm
It will be a mistake to overestimate the strength of Western feminism. It is unnatural to human natrue. It is too much contrived.

It succeeded in the WEst because of the support it got from those who were fighting for secularism, i.e, wanted to separate religion from the state and thus, sympathized with the feminists, who were also opposing the religious laws.

Overestimating its appeal amongst Muslim women will be a mistake. It can feasibly dealt with force. Also, as the approach to God is more direct in Islam, it has been comparatively isolated from corruption. Muslims, in general,  don't see their religion as an instrument for corruption.


Edited by ZamanH
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 13 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com