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Jenni
 
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Quote Jenni Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2005 at 7:19pm
I want to know what standing up for womens rights has to do with western feminism. As a stay at home mother myself who is upset with the way many women in the world are being treated I have no desire to put on a miniskirt and go attack the business world in Prada pumps. I belive you can be a Muslim Humanist and care for all those mistreated in the world, men women children and the elderly and handicapped. However statistically women and children are more often the victims of voilence and opression in this world, in the muslim and non muslim countries. Many Many women are becoming fed up and angry. I met a sister the other day who said she would not marry and wants to stay single and become a doctor. When I asked her why she said, the brothers I meet want an educated woman who will serve them and make money. They can't have it all. I can be a doctor and have a maid and not baby sit a husband. Now I don't think she is just a feminist, she is frustrated because not enough guys are willing to fulfill thier islamic dutie and be helpful to thier wife with the house and kids, so she won't marry. Now that is sad and many muslim women are waiting longer to marry and some not wanting to at all. I'm sorry to tell the truth but some  Muslim women are fed from all countries and backgrouds and the brothers are gonna feel it if they don't do something about it!!!
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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Quote Jenni Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2005 at 7:34pm
By the way to Ummziba with regards to women working if I need to see the doctor I say Mashalla there is a woman who went to medical school whos family made the sacrifice so I don't have to see a male to deliver my kids. And Mashalla my dentist is a woman, and my kids pediatrician is a Muslima. And thier teachers are women ect. ect. Being a housewife is great for some but the reality is that in any functioning society you need some women to have careers to support other families and women. When the taliban stopped women from going to college they cut off half of society and now the have a shortage of doctors and nurses and one of the highest rates of infant mortality in the world. If you ask any woman who is from Afghanistan about the taliban they will tell you that was the darkest time in their country. I have met many refugees from there and they are thankful the taliban is gone. I don't know how anyone could defend them.
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2005 at 8:19pm

As'Salaamu Alaikum

First and foremost sister Lameese with all due respect I would apprecite you toning down your comments as far as my character. I would also appreciate you not mentioning my mother or anything that I've stated. Normally, when people try to insult me or call me a "hypocrite" I use a (reductio ad absurrdum) but in this case my point is quite clear.

Sister since its incomprehensible for you to get my points let me break down what I mean (in this case I'll restate it for you since you didn't obviously get it the first time). When I talk of western feminism I'm talking not only the ideology of what feminism stands for but the implications of western feminism and its address towards Muslim women. First let me say that I'm an advocate of feminism neither Eastern or Western but the concept of what it stands for. But when it comes to cultural ideology I have to disagree.

You mention:

Western Feminism helping the Afghan women gain rights and independance is a bad thing? These women should have been kept oppressed and uneducated because........why? And over analytical of culture? Culture is what hurts religion. Culture is what is practiced first anywhere in the world then comes the religion. And usually culture incorporates religion not religion incoporates culture.

You didn't acorrectly address any points that I've made here so obviously you didn't get what I said. First off, Western feminism didn't start taking a look at Afghan women until post 9/11 so for you to make some statement as if the Western feminist movement has made such historical peaks is not only an inaccurate notion its illusionary. However the women in Afghan have no been liverate by the oppression, created by the former regime. I say such liberation "comes with a price" because now,  through such liberation Western feminist are now looking at the culture of Islam.

Many feminist in whom I've studied for reports as well as argued against for my Ungraduate degrees have said that there is a thin line between Islam and oppression. I have read reports that the "covering of women" in Islam is symbol of oppression and a symbol of a woman being silent. I have studied as well as read the reports by Western feminist that if a woman was educated she would abandon the "veil" because the woman in light of her own knowledge would recognize its negative symbolism.

Now what I was addressing was these remarks in my statement saying that "liberation came with a price" because the ideologies of Western feminism has infiltrated in the Afghan culture. As a Muslim man I'm compelled to defend Muslim women because the type of criticize they are using is criticism towards Islam so it effects all of us.

You said:

"Also, when the constitution says that all men are created equal under God it means that MEN are the whole of the human race, not just a man or men in general. And no, all men and women are not physically equal but mentally they can be."

You are right historically the constitution initially was intended to be gender bias of course, but my point wa snot to address the geder bias but the dialetical sayings which I tried to make examples out of. MEN are not the human race but mankind is as God has stated in the Qur'an. Both men and women make up the human race. So in this respect I didn't understand what you took from what I was trying to say. You also noted my assertion of humans allocated towards the animal kingdom. Again, what is wrong with that? You took offense but did you take time to realize that we humans belong to the animal kingdom? Did you take time to look using empirical reasearch to see that our compositions and behavior are results of "animal instincts?" Again what I was using here were metaphors to explain my point not call a woman or a man an animal.

All women and men biologically are created equal with the same compositional features e.g cheek bones, arm legs fingers etc. I have to say I disagree however with you saying that men and women are equal mentally. No we are not. All men mentally are not even equal so how can you can make a comparison with men and women. How a woman thinks in her everyday life is different from a man. Science even says that how men and women go about things are not the same because we use different areas of our brain. Now I would have agreed with you if you said men and women of like minds are the same because this is true. Upright Muslim men and women think alike, because the goal is to Allah. This is the truth.

Funny how you said that "I'm sick of women" because I give nothing but praise to women, my comments were aimed at women who complain a lot about the world but dont do anything. You obviously from your remark "And if you are sick of women complaining then stop listening."

You obviously dont seem a goal getter and from what I take from your responses my answers were aimed at towards you. Listen woman,  I was raised by a woman, a family of women, for over 23 years of my life. My mother was a single parent and as a young child I was very observant analytical and very curious of how women were being treated. Til today I am still the same way. Most of my good friends are women and many of them think as I do. For you to say that I should stop listening to complaining women does not only show again, your ignorance in overlooking what I originally wrote but shows your own lack of ambition in yourself.

Its not like what I said here I made up over night it took 23 years of my life to understand what I know now and yes my comments were very general based on my understanding of today's Muslim women. I never claimed to say "I am saying the truth" these are my comments. Also if you read the title heading "the problem of SOME women" I put SOME in caps to stress that the women I am addressing was not addressed to every women.

My sole purpose in this forum was to address the problems to the brothers certain problems with certain women. Again to be "liberated" by a western ideology is a non-Muslim ideology because the condept of liberated encompasses western tradition therefore any addition beyond its ma8instream beliefs would contradict Islamic teachings e.g To take veil off for reasons of so-called oppression. Muslim women are not oppressed, not ignorant and are God's best creatures on earth. If you talk to sister Nausheen and other sisters you'd realize I have nothing but love and respect for women so again now that I've made it clear to you and now that you've made your ignorance clear here to everyone I can now deposit your "two cents" into my Zakat fund.

I do however appreictae the comments made by Ummziba because she obviously got what I said. Of course she could disagree with me and that would be fine. She also was polite enough to address that my post was aimed at men only and nice enough to be apologetic about it.  Again I reiterate my post that MEN and WOMEN are not animals I was merely making metaphorical remarks. If you disagree with what I said now I dont care because this forum is for us men I do appreciate your feedback but if you have read the heading you would have read "For BROTHERS ONLY." As'Salaamu Alaikum

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Lameese
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Quote Lameese Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2005 at 11:48pm

As'Salaamu Alaikum

First and foremost sister Lameese with all due respect I would apprecite you toning down your comments as far as my character. I would also appreciate you not mentioning my mother or anything that I've stated. Normally, when people try to insult me or call me a "hypocrite" I use a (reductio ad absurrdum) but in this case my point is quite clear.

I said nothing that you did not profess to know yourself. I meant no disrespect against your mother. I was merely stating that maybe this is where you get the majority of info about women. As far as toning down, never again.

Sister since its incomprehensible for you to get my points let me break down what I mean (in this case I'll restate it for you since you didn't obviously get it the first time). When I talk of western feminism I'm talking not only the ideology of what feminism stands for but the implications of western feminism and its address towards Muslim women. First let me say that I'm an advocate of feminism neither Eastern or Western but the concept of what it stands for. But when it comes to cultural ideology I have to disagree.

Incomprehensible for me to get your points? I think not. I think I got your points very well. Maybe it is you that does not understand what he is talking about.

You mention:

Western Feminism helping the Afghan women gain rights and independance is a bad thing? These women should have been kept oppressed and uneducated because........why? And over analytical of culture? Culture is what hurts religion. Culture is what is practiced first anywhere in the world then comes the religion. And usually culture incorporates religion not religion incoporates culture.

You didn't acorrectly address any points that I've made here so obviously you didn't get what I said. First off, Western feminism didn't start taking a look at Afghan women until post 9/11 so for you to make some statement as if the Western feminist movement has made such historical peaks is not only an inaccurate notion its illusionary. However the women in Afghan have no been liverate by the oppression, created by the former regime. I say such liberation "comes with a price" because now,  through such liberation Western feminist are now looking at the culture of Islam.

I think we both know that Western Feminism has been looking at Islamic women and opression for quite some time, whether it be in Afghanastan or in Saudi Arabia or in the USA. Whether it be from former or current regimes. Or Whether it be from their families (ie. brother or father) or from their husbands.

Many feminist in whom I've studied for reports as well as argued against for my Ungraduate degrees have said that there is a thin line between Islam and oppression. I have read reports that the "covering of women" in Islam is symbol of oppression and a symbol of a woman being silent. I have studied as well as read the reports by Western feminist that if a woman was educated she would abandon the "veil" because the woman in light of her own knowledge would recognize its negative symbolism.

What you are dealing with in any culture is ignorance. For someone to say that there is a "thin line between Islam and oppression" has never even tried to study Islam. It is a broad sweeping statment without anything to back it up Islamically. Now on the other hand, the culture does show "oppression" toward it's women, whether it is from tradition or culture. Also. let's talk about hijab, the "veil". When a woman chooses to cover herself and it is for Allah then that is a good and a right thing to do. When she is forced to wear it by her father or brothers or husband then that is oppressive. She has to feel it in her heart and want to wear it. Not just wear it because someone if forcing her to or demading it of her. It is her soul that she has to worry about and it is her choice, not the husbands, brother or father.This is oppressive. 

Now what I was addressing was these remarks in my statement saying that "liberation came with a price" because the ideologies of Western feminism has infiltrated in the Afghan culture. As a Muslim man I'm compelled to defend Muslim women because the type of criticize they are using is criticism towards Islam so it effects all of us.

So, you are saying that the Afghani women have no minds of their own, and are not intelligent enough to pick themselves up and start again? They have to have Westerners to help them every step of the way? The Afghani women I know are very strong women and can think for themselves and after having to live that way, now know what they want and do not want.

You also noted my assertion of humans allocated towards the animal kingdom. Again, what is wrong with that? You took offense but did you take time to realize that we humans belong to the animal kingdom? Did you take time to look using empirical reasearch to see that our compositions and behavior are results of "animal instincts?" Again what I was using here were metaphors to explain my point not call a woman or a man an animal.

I took offense because it was aimed at women. We might be part of the Animal Kingdom but we do not need to act like Lions and Lionesses. This, again, is why God gave us a brain and the ability to reason. Your thought was that we (women) need to take notice of this in the Animal Kingdom and base that on how we should act because you think it is the right way to be. Also, as I said, in that part of the animal kingdom, the Lioness decides, not the male.

 Now I would have agreed with you if you said men and women of like minds are the same because this is true. Upright Muslim men and women think alike, because the goal is to Allah. This is the truth.

Oh My! Maybe I needed to clarify that for you.

Funny how you said that "I'm sick of women" because I give nothing but praise to women, my comments were aimed at women who complain a lot about the world but dont do anything. You obviously from your remark "And if you are sick of women complaining then stop listening."

Again, I said if you are SICK OF WOMEN COMPLAINING. Not that you are just sick of women.

You obviously dont seem a goal getter and from what I take from your responses my answers were aimed at towards you. Listen woman,  I was raised by a woman, a family of women, for over 23 years of my life. My mother was a single parent and as a young child I was very observant analytical and very curious of how women were being treated. Til today I am still the same way. Most of my good friends are women and many of them think as I do. For you to say that I should stop listening to complaining women does not only show again, your ignorance in overlooking what I originally wrote but shows your own lack of ambition in yourself.

Oh Brother, you need to calm down your tone when talking about my character? Remember? Now I will call you hypocrite. And do not call me WOMAN again! I HAVE A NAME! And NEVER tell me that I am not ambitious little boy. I am the one that carries my family! I worked up until the last 4 days before I delivered while my husband who is Muslim and did not work and sat on the couch.I did all the housework, cooking and cleaning too!  I worked 12 hour night shifts to make enough money to be able to SUPPORT my family and have enough health insurance to be able to have prenatal care. I hold 3 degrees from 3 different colleges and on of those degrees is in WOMENS RIGHTS, ISSUES AND LAWS. You do not know me. I am not uneducated nor AM I IGNORANT. In my job, I have to make life altering decisions in split seconds and I have to know what I am doing!

Its not like what I said here I made up over night it took 23 years of my life to understand what I know now and yes my comments were very general based on my understanding of today's Muslim women. I never claimed to say "I am saying the truth" these are my comments. Also if you read the title heading "the problem of SOME women" I put SOME in caps to stress that the women I am addressing was not addressed to every women.

Compare that to my almost 40 YEARS AS A WOMAN! And your heading is oppressive. SOME women? Let's hear you talk about SOME men now. And I doubt that there are many women who just complain. When you get to your thesis, try doing it on all the women that complain and who you think are doing nothing about it. You will be suprised what you will find. your 23 years..........

 If you talk to sister Nausheen and other sisters you'd realize I have nothing but love and respect for women so again now that I've made it clear to you and now that you've made your ignorance clear here to everyone I can now deposit your "two cents" into my Zakat fund.

You do that little one. Do you feel like a big man calling me ignorant? Now does that sound like you are trying to silence me? Oppress me?

If you disagree with what I said now I dont care because this forum is for us men I do appreciate your feedback but if you have read the heading you would have read "For BROTHERS ONLY." As'Salaamu Alaikum

I will remind you of that next time you post in the Women's corner too.

 

Lameese

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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2005 at 12:27am

Bismillah

Brothers and Sisters in Islaam. Lets reduce the heat. There is noone propogating oppression of women and noone advocating supremacy of men. What's the fuss. There is no necessity of fighting for some "rights" as much as there is in establishing proper teaching and understanding of Islam and its reflection through our actions.

Yes, there are cases of women overreacting and there are cases of men not fulfilling their responsibilities towards their wives and family... but all these are outside of the scope of Islam. These are examples of ignorance...

Sister Lameese and Brother Israfil please re-view your emotionally driven posts" and consider apologising to each other for at least having called each other hypocrites. That will be the best way and the way of the best.

It may not have been completely correct for Brother Israfil to limit the discussion to brothers' participation as much as it wasn't completely correct for Sister Lameese to ignore his request... As such my "two cents" go equally distributed: one cent to Brother Israfil and one cent to Sister Lameese. Hope women and men are feeling better now, insha Allah.

MOCKBA
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Quote Lameese Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2005 at 1:28am

Originally posted by MOCKBA

                                                                                           Bismillah 

Yes, there are cases of women overreacting and there are cases of men not fulfilling their responsibilities towards their wives and family... but all these are outside of the scope of Islam. These are examples of ignorance...

Sister Lameese and Brother Israfil please re-view your emotionally driven posts" and consider apologising to each other for at least having called each other hypocrites. That will be the best way and the way of the best.

 

You are right MOCKBA.

Israfil I am sorry for calling you a hypocrite.

Lameese

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Quote kim! Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2005 at 6:54am

Western feminism has been watching Afghanistan since 1996. I know - I was reading about it myself that year, reading stuff written by other women. Bush and the US military have been watching Afghanistan since 2001. They didn't care about Afghanistan before that point because the Russians were no longer there.

The best thing Western feminism can teach women from places like Afghanistan is that they are allowed to decide their own lives - whether to work, or not to work, wear the veil, or not, be a Muslim (or not), etc, etc. WOmen have their choices and NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING should be forced upon them.

NOTHING.

Not a husband, not a loony father, not a loony father in law, not a pregnancy, not a house that's a cage, not unemployment, not their religion, not their clothes. NOTHING.

Let them make their own decisions, work to achieve their own honour (and not have someone else's twisted, inappropriate versions of honour forced upon them), have the husband they want, have the job they want, stay home if they want, have kids if they want, have no kids if they want, etc.

Kim...

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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2005 at 8:21am

So far according to Lameese's personal message I'm arrogant and ignorant and also she denied calling me a hypocrite even though she said I was one but I do however apologize I thought that men can talk about this because it is the mens section of chat. But I see its not. I like how people brag about degrees and stuff. Lameese I again apologize for whatever you took from what I said but you assume too much and your over analytical about certain statments that I've made. By overanalyzing my comments regarding the animal kingdom and the like and by you falsly assuming I referred to men and women as lions and lioness was a false assumption.

You've mention some statements regarding me thinking Afghan women cannot think (or you might have said 'Do I believe Afghan women cant think on their own') was also false. Never in what I've said here I said that all I wanted to convey to the brothers was that I want for our community is to get back to its spiritual roots. What men have done to women in Afghanistan is not only barbaric its an abomination and its unislamic. I wanted us men to address these issues in hopes of getting a man's perspective on things. I wasn't intentionally trying to leave women out but sometimes I believe that men must discuss issues amongst themselves.

If this were general chat I can understand moderators as well as your regular general chatters to comment and I wouldn't have used the words "For brothers Only" but I appropriately made that title here under the assumption that only the brothers respond. I don't see why moderators need to jump in but I understand and comply with the rules here. As for making more post I think today might be the last day for me because I have much to do at school and job wise so I again apologize for any misunderstandings and as Lameese wrote "May God forgive me for my ignorance." BTW the "two cents" was meant as a joke. In the back of my mind I knew sisters would come into the forum to comment.

 

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