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Groups – Men (Brothers)
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2005 at 9:46pm
>>>>Marriage is just a wrapper, its the consent between husband and wife to have sex with each other, that is the real thing<<<<

When I wrote that, I was thinking of sex as the only thing that a man and woman are allowed to have after marriage that is  not allowed before marriage to jointly indulge in(in general, in human societies). I mean man and woman can legally develop bonds of friendship and affection (that has no "sex" component in it) etc. before marriage too, but they are allowed to have sex only after marriage and not before it.

Edited by ZamanH
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2005 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by ZamanH

Originally posted by Khadija1021

Assalamu Alaikum

 


Originally posted by ZamanH

    It has become a cliche to say that man and woman are equal or that man and women complement each other. They are both indespensable for human society to work properly. Each of them is as important as the other.

 

Which part of this do you not agree with?  The last time I checked, Allah said these things in the Qur’an.  I want you to show me exactly where it says in the Qur’an or Sunnah that men and women are not equal or that they do not complement one another or that they are not indispensable for human society to work properly or that they are not important to one another.  How could you possibly utter these things and believe they are merely a “cliché” created by Western society.  This is what Allah said about the very creation of men and women.



I used cliche, to mean self-evident truth.



ZamanH wrote:
As I have earlier said, equality of rights don't imply their identicality. Rights of an individuals should be commensurate with the contribution of the individual to the society (of course, a Communist will raise his eyebrows here, but that has always been and that will always be). Contribution not just in the quantitative sense but also qualititatively. That brings in the notion of duties into picture. To me it appears, rights complement duties. Rights of all the adult members to be for their duties to the society. Right not to be seen in isolation of duties. To me, equality means that for no individual in the society his/her duties of the soceity be allowed to exceed his/her rights (that in turn, to me, appears to be duties of the society towards that individual) granted by the society and distibution of rights be such that such an arrangement can be stably maintained.

 

This Brother ZamanH is right where you really start to go wrong.


I was only opposing the influence of Western culture over Islam. That does not mean, I want to thrust my own cultures in to Islam. I think I have clarified in my other post to Israfil that I was not justifying communism or caste-system.


Edited by ZamanH
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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Khadija1021
 
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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2005 at 10:12pm

Originally posted by ZamanH


When I wrote that, I was thinking of sex as the only thing that a man and woman are allowed to have after marriage that is  not allowed before marriage to jointly indulge in(in general, in human societies). I mean man and woman can legally develop bonds of friendship and affection (that has no "sex" component in it) etc. before marriage too, but they are allowed to have sex only after marriage and not before it.

Brother ZamanH, where in the Qur'an or the Sunnah does it say that men and women can "legally develop bonds of friendship and affection" before marriage? 

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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Khadija1021
 
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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2005 at 10:22pm

Brother ZamanH,

Cliche means: An overused expression or idea; something which is superficial.

So, how can cliche be a "self-evident fact"?  If you meant "that man and woman are equal or that man and women complement each other. They are both indespensable for human society to work properly. Each of them is as important as the other" is a self-evident fact, then you should have simply said you believe this is true.  By the way, do you?

PAZ, Khadija



Edited by Khadija1021
Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 12:28am
Sister I was going to say thye same thing..good job. Brother Zaman I suggest defining certain words which are self-evident to us in ways we can understand, because as Sister Khadija posted to say  something is a cliche refers to "an overused expression." That can said that something is self-evident but this word is used in regards to a certain expression that become repitiuous.
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 1:04am
Originally posted by Khadija1021

Brother ZamanH, where in the Qur'an or the Sunnah does it say that men and women can "legally develop bonds of friendship and affection" before marriage? 



legally develop bonds of friendship and affection" before marriage=legally develop bonds of friendship and affection" outside marriage.

I hope I make myself clear now. I mean there are so many men and women in this forum here who are friends with each other and not married to each other and consider themselves to be brothers and sisters to each other.
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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Khadija1021
 
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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 8:52am

Assalamu Alaikum

Brother ZamanH, there is a big difference between coming to this forum board to post our thoughts with other muslims than to develop friendships between the sexs in person.  Males and females are not allowed to develop close friendships and affection on a physical level with persons of the opposite sex before, during or after marriage.  Where did you get the idea that this is permitted in Islam?

PAZ, Khadija 

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 5:31pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Assalamualaikum Brother Israfil,

I agree with all what you have said in your response to me. Alhamdulillah.

Unfortunately this thread is going off topic ... and hope people would take other concerns to a separate string. For this reason I do not wish to respond to the discussion between Zaman and Khadija.

Back to the topic .... just like equality does not mean all families should have equal income, not all professional specializations should have same importance in society etc, equality between a man and a woman does not mean, if a man can go out with his hair uncovered, so should a woman.

In a household the husband and wife have different rights and responsibilities. To allow both, those rights is equality. In the same way, between a son and a daughter, there are different rights on parents ... when the parents give those rights to their children accordingly, then they have observed equality between their children.

In other words, i am trying to echo your thoughts, that the guiding principles for leting the men and women be in society come from the Quran for Muslims. If we tend to borrow these from elsewhere ... it is indeed infiltration of a foreign thing, which can have acceptance only as long as it does not contradict our Sharia.

Infilteration is sometimes intentionally planted in our social system while on others it comes like a mere opinion .... like in a thread in women's section a non-muslim came forward to advocate in favor of a husband's unislamic personal behaviors - not realising what was being forward as "okay" in not okay for a muslim man!

Women like irshad manji are taken seriously by the westers who pay too much attention to islam as a "socially incompatible" set of rules, and the so called mederate and/or apologetic muslims. If it was these women who you referred to as the complaining folks .... I agree.

Therefore i guess there is no dispute about what you are saying. To further the discussion - something that I always profess -  we need to educate our children and youth islamically - which means with authentic islam, give them the sunnah and sharia.  We need to engage people in encouraging discussions, that has a positive impact on them. We need to bring non-practising muslims into our societies, and help them understand the importance of living according to islam ... in a compassionate manner.

Very  often there is resentment among muslims about who is following the right religion and who is not. Resentment of reverts towards born muslims and vice versa ... all these practices are unhealthy, which need to be displaced by active, sincere, efforts of reinforcement of our foundations and weeding of the weeknesses.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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