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Groups – Men (Brothers)
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Culture & Community : Groups – Men (Brothers)
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2005 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by Khadija1021

Originally posted by ZamanH

Originally posted by Israfil

Anad again by what you say sounds like you condone them...hmmm

I supported them, its strange you didn't get that at first.

Although, Taliban were staunch in theri beliefs, they did allow free religious discourse and were freely influenced by it. If at all their treatment of women was unislamic, they would have certainly mend thier ways if they were convinced about it.

Only fault I see in them is that they were not pragmatic in dealing with the Northern Alliance and granting them autonomy. Also, that would have helped them to establish diplomatic relation with Iran.

ZamanH, "if at all"...are you suggesting that maybe they weren't "unIslmic" in their treatment of women or that it's okay because that was the only thing they were "unIslamic" about?  "...if they weren't convinced about it?"  What then?  How long should these Muslim women be denied their Allah given rights? 

PAZ, Khadija

As long as a better alternative to them (i.e, the Taliban) didn't come. And the present "Afghan" government is too weak to be considered better. People are suffering more now than they did under Taliban because of total lawlessness.



Edited by ZamanH
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2005 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by Khadija1021

 

What ZamanH doesn't take into account is that nothing we own is ours except through the grace of All-Might Allah from whom we merely borrow what we have while we are in this life. 

I didn't deny that anywhere. 

Originally posted by Khadija1021

Idi He also believes that if he took a second wife, that he could simply bring her into his home to live with his other wife (who by the way he feel no obligation to even speak with about this situation) who would have no say in the matter.  However, he is mistaken.  In the Qur'an, it states that he must treat his wives the same or not take another at all.  How can bringing another women into the home where the first wife have already developed a life be just?  He would be telling hiw first wife that she had to have less than what he had given her when she agreed to marry him which is not what the Qur’an says he can do.  To be just, he would have to provide a separate home for the second wife unless the two women agreed to share the same home.  All of the Prophet's (pbuh) wives had their own homes.

I didn't know about it being mandatory to provide separate home to second wife. Is your proposition based on hadith?? It is sunnah, though, but I don't know if its mandatory.

Originally posted by Khadija1021

With respect to adultery and the Qur'an, if ZamanH were correct in his assumption that men cannot commit adultery than why did Allah say to punish both men and women who commit illegal sex by giving them each 80 lashes?  He didn't say that the punishment was merely for women.  And why did Allah tell both men and women to guard their chastity? 

As I have said earlier, punishment to the man is for cheating the family of the girl (and not his own family) with whom he had illicit sex.

 And why didn't Allah allow unmarried men to have sex with their salves instead of telling them to marry a believing slave if they could not control their desire for sex?  And why did Allah say that it was better if the unmarried man waited instead of marrying the believing slave?  The Qur'an is full of ayats regarding the issue of adultery and within those ayats, it is clear that men are just as capable of committing adultery as are women.

 

PAZ, Khadija

 

That might be because Allah disliked greater interaction between Muslims and the disbelievers. Of course, Allah knows best.

 

 

 

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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kim!
 
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Quote kim! Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 6:25am
Originally posted by ZamanH

Zaman, do you hold men to the same standard?  Do you think a man who has lost his virginity before marriage cannot be a good husband or be a trusted husband? 

As I had said earlier in other thread, such a man is a bad man, therefore, he should be considered a bad husband. According to the Quran, such men should marry women who themselves indulge in fornication.

Also, as I have earlier said in other thread, unlike woman, a man does not betray his family by commiting adultery (he cheats another man, though).

 

 

That's right, of course! A man committing adultery does _not_ betray his family because his family, especially his wife who after all, is ONLY a stupid woman, means nothing to him!  Well done! Congratulations on helping to attract so many more people to your cult. Diseases like AIDS exist because of people who "think" like you.

 And how can you judge a group of people where you have no basis to judge?

I don't think that I have "no basis to judge". I have know much about Western society through Western media itself.

Really? Tell me - are all Indian men cute, humorous little guys who like nothing better than to toady to the British and other upper-class visitors. Cos that's what _I_ have seen on tv a lot.  Or maybe all your men are brutal, gang-raping animals? That's actually the sort of stuff I have read in the past few years - Indian men raping and killing Indian women. Is that what I should believe from the media?

 

 

 Let me put it this way, I believe people, in general, are equally selfish everywhere (though, historically Westerners have been more brutal comapared to others), but Western way of life does not conform to Islam.

Really?  Damn - democracy and freedom of choice must make it SO HARD for Muslims to be Muslims.

And concerning the the equality of gender, equality does not imply identicality. To me equality means equal/identical rights to live and to be happy. Society should not prefer life/happiness of one person to that of another person (who has not acted unislamically, of course).

Equality does NOT imply identicality. IT NEVER HAS. Equality refers to equality of OPPORTUNITY.  I would make a really awful fireman, or athlete or computer programmer, so I will never have the experience of being any of those, but at least I am allowed to TRY. ie: to study, or to give it a go or whatever. I can't BE those things, but I can study and learn and realise that I can't be those things. NO ONE has the right to stop me point blank and stop me from giving any of these things an initial go.

Understand?

Kim...



Edited by Nausheen
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 6:35am
Originally posted by ZamanH

Also, as I have earlier said in other thread, unlike woman, a man does not betray his family by commiting adultery (he cheats another man, though).

how is a man not betraying his family unlike women ?

he cheats another man, though ??  does not make any sense.

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Quote kim! Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 7:00am

See Angel, Muslim men are _sensitive_. They like to point at women and tell us we're too emotional to be taken seriously, but really it's the men who are so much more emotional. that's why a man whose wife is cheating on him will be hurt SO much more than a woman whose husband is cheating on her.

Men are more emotional. That's why they have to start wars and punch each other and generally be more violent and stupid. Because their widdle pwide gets too hurt, poor dears, so they have to go out and kill people in order to feel better about themselves and prove themselves Manly and Worthy. Remember - size matters...

Kim...

 

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Khadija1021
 
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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2005 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by kim!

See Angel, Muslim men are _sensitive_. They like to point at women and tell us we're too emotional to be taken seriously, but really it's the men who are so much more emotional. that's why a man whose wife is cheating on him will be hurt SO much more than a woman whose husband is cheating on her.

Men are more emotional. That's why they have to start wars and punch each other and generally be more violent and stupid. Because their widdle pwide gets too hurt, poor dears, so they have to go out and kill people in order to feel better about themselves and prove themselves Manly and Worthy. Remember - size matters...

Kim...

Kim, you don't like men very much do you?  I don't think it is logically sound to stereotype all Muslim men based upon the posts of ZamanH.  I'm sure there are plenty of Muslim men who don't think like ZamanH...a few of them actually post on IC forum.

PAZ, Khadija

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 2:36am
Originally posted by kim!

Originally posted by ZamanH

Zaman, do you hold men to the same standard?  Do you think a man who has lost his virginity before marriage cannot be a good husband or be a trusted husband? 

As I had said earlier in other thread, such a man is a bad man, therefore, he should be considered a bad husband. According to the Quran, such men should marry women who themselves indulge in fornication.

Also, as I have earlier said in other thread, unlike woman, a man does not betray his family by commiting adultery (he cheats another man, though).

 

 

That's right, of course! A man committing adultery does _not_ betray his family because his family, especially his wife who after all, is ONLY a stupid woman, means nothing to him!  Well done! Congratulations on helping to attract so many more people to your cult. Diseases like AIDS exist because of people who "think" like you.


I did not at all once justified illicit sex or rape.


 And how can you judge a group of people where you have no basis to judge?

I don't think that I have "no basis to judge". I have know much about Western society through Western media itself.

Really? Tell me - are all Indian men cute, humorous little guys who like nothing better than to toady to the British and other upper-class visitors. Cos that's what _I_ have seen on tv a lot. 


If I am wrong, then isn't a girl who does not lose her virginity before marriage is considered an exception in the WEst. Of course, she is. But you don't know because you didn't read about that in an Indian newspaper.



 Let me put it this way, I believe people, in general, are equally selfish everywhere (though, historically Westerners have been more brutal comapared to others), but Western way of life does not conform to Islam.

Really?  Damn - democracy and freedom of choice must make it SO HARD for Muslims to be Muslims.


No, I meant nudity and lewdness,


And concerning the the equality of gender, equality does not imply identicality. To me equality means equal/identical rights to live and to be happy. Society should not prefer life/happiness of one person to that of another person (who has not acted unislamically, of course).

Equality does NOT imply identicality. IT NEVER HAS. Equality refers to equality of OPPORTUNITY.  I would make a really awful fireman, or athlete or computer programmer, so I will never have the experience of being any of those, but at least I am allowed to TRY. ie: to study, or to give it a go or whatever. I can't BE those things, but I can study and learn and realise that I can't be those things. NO ONE has the right to stop me point blank and stop me from giving any of these things an initial go.

Understand?

Kim...



I don't confuse equality with liberty. And I don't support unlimited liberty. Besides, liberty should not be unconditional.


Edited by Nausheen
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2005 at 2:41am
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by ZamanH

Also, as I have earlier said in other thread, unlike woman, a man does not betray his family by commiting adultery (he cheats another man, though).

how is a man not betraying his family unlike women ?

he cheats another man, though ??  does not make any sense.



I don't accept man betrays his wife/group by having sex outside marriage/group, unlike women. Sex is not just a biological activity, at least in human beings it is used to convey the message of living together. Unless incest is allowed, one of them has to leave the original home to live with the other partner. In almost all the societies, women move to the house of their spouses (and not the man). And a woman cannot possibly live in more than one house at the same time, thus she cannot promise more than one man of living together with him. 
A man can only betray his wife, if he refuses to provide for her or protect her.
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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