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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Topic: The problem with SOME women
    Posted: 05 July 2005 at 8:58pm

As'Salaamu Alaikum brothers,

I intend on making this discussion solely for BROTHERS ONLY but I understand the need for women to add their two cents in. I first have to say before anything comes out of my mouth is that women are God's most beautiful creatures and that they are indeed a blessing to mankind. They are indeed the maintainers of our society and the shoulders in which the world is held upon. However, I believe there is a growing problem among some women in our community. I believe that Western soceity has an effect on the spiritual ideologies of our women.

Since 9/11 Western feminism has looked at the Afghan women with sadness and has since, helped the Afghan women struggle to their feet in freedom and independence. It has come with a price. We all have to understand that Western culture is different from all other cultures. It has taken many generations for women to gain rights, and unfortunately it came at the expense of lives of many brave women. The problem with feminism is that it extends beyond its own definition and is over analytical of culture.

Many Muslim feminist (and I can name one here) who believe that not only women get equal rights but in marriage should share power and have equal footing as men. Everything in feminism is equal, equal, equal. Funny in the decleration of Independence it says "All men are created equal." On a macrocosmic scale this however is true, all of mankind is equal in the eyes of God. But on a microcosmic scale this is not so.

All men and women are not equal. All men are not equal because not all men's body are proportional equal. Not all of men are equal in height. Not all men are equal in behavior. The smae can be said for women. This also can extened in relationships. As the Qur'an said men are the protectors of women. This same concept is also true in the animal kingdom. Before a lion mates he must first show is courage and power and must thus fight off other competing lions for the sake of the woman. The winner gets the spoils of battle which is the woman. However barbaric it sounds this to a lesser extent is the reality of humanity. Too many women are breaking away from the naturality of human behavior and are taking a more radical approach by not associating with this concept.

When women argue culture they argue based on pre-conceived bias notions and not on objectivity. When women look at other women practicing their faith (or perhaps their culture) they look at disgust and are thus strangers in the unknown world of foreign culture. Not all women of course but those who claim to have free and equal minds. Under the illusion of feminism they claim that independece and independent think is objective but when one views another culture it is not objective.

I have to say I'm sick of women complaining about what other women do or behave because if the world was perfect we all would agree. I can cite many Muslim women in Africa are have been mistreated and though, I have cited these incident numerous times it has never changed anything. I pray that God will judge the right and condemn the wrong. To you women who claim to fight for injustice please take your illusions elsewhere.

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Arabian
 
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Quote Arabian Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2005 at 10:02pm
Right on brother!  I could also complain but it would take volumes upon volumes before I would finish.
...the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
(The Quran, 21:30)
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2005 at 9:59am
I'm glad someone agrees, it is mostly aimed at women who complain. I know for sure that I definitely will not marry a woman who complains. I believe complaining women who sit and complain are not ambitious as the ones who complain but are ambitious to make change. I am sad that many Muslim women have gotten to this point thanks to liberal feminist.
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ummziba
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Quote ummziba Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2005 at 10:30am

Assalamu alaikum Brother Israfil,

I do appologize profusely for putting "my two cents" in a thread you wished to be for brothers only.  Please don't be angry or annoyed with me .  I am afraid I have about as much control over my big mouth as Brother Arabian has over a different part of his anatomy.   (We all have our demons to deal with!  )

Just wanted to say that I do agree with your post, for the most part.  There certainly seems to be a growing influence on the sisters from western "feminist" types.  It always breaks my heart when I see sisters who are walking around dressed like westerners, their faces painted like clowns, ruining their backs in those ridiculous high heels...

On the other side of it, are the fighters for women's rights who don't understand the cultural difference, as you have pointed out so well in your post.  Trouble is, they always seem to find some woman from the group they are trying to "liberate" who will speak out against her culture/homeland/religious practices...

I just wanted to add that it is not only the women.  Many men, Muslim and non-Muslim support this non-traditional role of women.  Imagine how most men support this - it is because they can have their cake and eat it too!

A man can have a wife who cooks, bakes, cleans, does laundry, has babies, raises children, runs the kids all over to their activities and so on and so forth, and wow, what a bonus, she'll go and work for a living too!  Talk about having it made - I mean the men.  The women who go for this so called equality thing have really shot themselves in the foot. 

Now they must be some kind of superwoman, to take on two roles instead of one, the traditional housewife and a contributor to the family finances.  Is it any wonder many men support this kind of thinking?  How many western men, Muslim or not, look for a wife who will NOT work, who will stay home and be a housewife?  Most would rather have that and the extra income her outside work can bring in. 

I don't know how prevelant this is becoming in non-western countries, but I would bet it is spreading there as well.  These women who want this strange kind of "equality" are being supported by more than just other like minded women.

The other great supporters of this new kind of equality for women are the (mostly) men, business men, who are profiting greatly from the spending these working women do.  When western women went to work to keep the factories running during World War II, the business world discovered a goldmine - women who work spend tons more money than women who depend solely on their husband for spending money!!!!!  The business world got into the business of convincing women that working outside the home was the best thing for them.

Now, look at all the working women, these who think they are so "equal".  They work for less pay than men in many jobs.  They spend all their hard earned money on all that stuff they don't need: makeup, nail polish, hair dye, weekly trips to the hairdresser and nail salon, the latest fashions, the coolest shoes, an even bigger (gas guzzling) car, a bigger house, the newest gadget......

Let me make it clear that I in no way hold anything against the women who must work, nor against those necessary female careers (doctors, dentists....).  It is the ones who don't need to that have made it bad for the rest of us.

Brother, you say "too many women are breaking away from the naturality of human behavior".   You are so right.  But, a big part of the problem is that there are so many men who also support this for the financial reasons I have stated.  We are all in this together and the blame lays on both sides of the gender divide.

So, what are some solutions?

Again, I appologize for sticking my two cents in - but I bet you knew I would .

Oh, and I do hope you don't think I am complaining .

Peace, ummziba.



Edited by ummziba
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2005 at 10:44am

As'Salaamu alaikum sister Ummziba,

Your opinion is much appreciated here and though it was for the brothers I'm glad you made some additions to the forum post. I will make a response (not contrary to yours because I obviously agree) but I have to clean up the house right now but I will come back and comment.

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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2005 at 2:55pm

Wa'alaikum Salaam,

After reviewing there is nothing more in addition to what you've said that I can add, but the only thing I just want to mention again is that I believe that Muslim as well as men need a group session regarding this issue. Not so much as the issue of blaming wstern society but acknowledging that our community is changing. I would hope that these issues regarding the infiltration of ideologies in our community are non-Islamic ideologies and should be discarded. Unfortunately we have those who believe these ideas. Again I have to address those who come online to complain about certain issues while themselves are not doing about those issues. I did also want to add more regarding the expectancy of a man when a women wants to engage in the dialogue of marriage but that is another issue.

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Quote Lameese Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2005 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by Israfil

As'Salaamu Alaikum brothers,

I intend on making this discussion solely for BROTHERS ONLY but I understand the need for women to add their two cents in. I first have to say before anything comes out of my mouth is that women are God's most beautiful creatures and that they are indeed a blessing to mankind. They are indeed the maintainers of our society and the shoulders in which the world is held upon. However, I believe there is a growing problem among some women in our community. I believe that Western soceity has an effect on the spiritual ideologies of our women.

Since 9/11 Western feminism has looked at the Afghan women with sadness and has since, helped the Afghan women struggle to their feet in freedom and independence. It has come with a price. We all have to understand that Western culture is different from all other cultures. It has taken many generations for women to gain rights, and unfortunately it came at the expense of lives of many brave women. The problem with feminism is that it extends beyond its own definition and is over analytical of culture.

Many Muslim feminist (and I can name one here) who believe that not only women get equal rights but in marriage should share power and have equal footing as men. Everything in feminism is equal, equal, equal. Funny in the decleration of Independence it says "All men are created equal." On a macrocosmic scale this however is true, all of mankind is equal in the eyes of God. But on a microcosmic scale this is not so.

All men and women are not equal. All men are not equal because not all men's body are proportional equal. Not all of men are equal in height. Not all men are equal in behavior. The smae can be said for women. This also can extened in relationships. As the Qur'an said men are the protectors of women. This same concept is also true in the animal kingdom. Before a lion mates he must first show is courage and power and must thus fight off other competing lions for the sake of the woman. The winner gets the spoils of battle which is the woman. However barbaric it sounds this to a lesser extent is the reality of humanity. Too many women are breaking away from the naturality of human behavior and are taking a more radical approach by not associating with this concept.

When women argue culture they argue based on pre-conceived bias notions and not on objectivity. When women look at other women practicing their faith (or perhaps their culture) they look at disgust and are thus strangers in the unknown world of foreign culture. Not all women of course but those who claim to have free and equal minds. Under the illusion of feminism they claim that independece and independent think is objective but when one views another culture it is not objective.

I have to say I'm sick of women complaining about what other women do or behave because if the world was perfect we all would agree. I can cite many Muslim women in Africa are have been mistreated and though, I have cited these incident numerous times it has never changed anything. I pray that God will judge the right and condemn the wrong. To you women who claim to fight for injustice please take your illusions elsewhere.

 

Well, let me be the first to add my 2 cents. First you are negative by adding the little qipp about the 2 cents and then turn around and praise us. What a contradiction you make. Secondly, you as a man cannot hope to even understand what a woman let alone millions of women think or feel. Also, have you ever even taken the time to ask a woman how she feels spiritually besides your mother?

And let me get this straight. Western Feminism helping the Afghan women gain rights and independance is a bad thing? These women should have been kept oppressed and uneducated because........why? And over analytical of culture? Culture is what hurts religion. Culture is what is practiced first anywhere in the world then comes the religion. And usually culture incorporates religion not religion incoporates culture.

Also, when the constitution says that all men are created equal under God it means that MEN are the whole of the human race, not just a man or men in general. And no, all men and women are not physically equal but mentally they can be. Oh! And let's talk about the animal kingdom. Maybe you do not watch enough nature shows. In the Lion kingdom the female still chooses if she wants the male lion even after the fight. Please, do me a favor and research this. And once the female accepts to be part of the group then the fat lazy male lion sits in the sun while the female hunts and attacks prey. So, whom is really taking care of whom here? Also, to liken Human women to the animal kingdom is not only rediciolous it is DISGUSTING. And saying that women are getting away from this concept shows that you not only do not like women, you do not respect them very much either. God created us different from animals when he gave us the ability to think and reason. And you think women should be more like animals with their thinking and behavior?

Also, again, everyone who has any religion at all believes that their religion and cultrue is the best.  Muslims look at the USA with disgust for their culture and religious beliefs and The USA looks at the Islamic nations with disgust for their culture and religious beliefs. There is no justice in ignorance.

And if you are sick of women complaining then stop listening. But, of course, you are the only one that God has give the gift to to understand what all women think and feel in their cultures and religion and in spiritual matters, right?

And what, pray tell, do you believe the injustices that women are fighting for are?

 

Lameese

 

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ummziba
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Quote ummziba Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2005 at 6:20pm

Assalamu alaikum Sister Lameese,

I ask you in all sincerity: did you even read the posts here?  It seems as if something has made you mad and you are just blowing off steam instead of using your reason.  Please realize what the issues are here.

Originally posted by Israfil

 Not so much as the issue of blaming wstern society but acknowledging that our community is changing. I would hope that these issues regarding the infiltration of ideologies in our community are non-Islamic ideologies and should be discarded. Unfortunately we have those who believe these ideas.

Anyone with their eyes open can see that un-Islamic ideologies are definitely infiltrating our community.  This is what is being discussed here. 

The brother was not keeping women out - what he wants is for the brothers to have a discussion on these issues, and I do hope that this happens, it is needed.

You are very mistaken if you think that Brother Israfil does not like women, his posts throughout this board make it very clear that he admires women.

Please, Sister Lameese, I do ask you to reconsider your angry outburst and look at these issues with reason.  Getting angry is certainly counterproductive, don't you think?  Are you aware of the Islamic view of the different roles of men and women as set down by Allah in the Qur'an?  We are not lions, we are created by Allah as two halves of a pair, different but completing one another.

Peace, ummziba.

 

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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