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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Was Jesus A " Jew"(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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Friendship
 
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bullet Posted: 16 December 2008 at 5:58am
Assalamu alikum.

I posted that :They initially called themselves the children of Israel and Allah accepted. I think the name 'Jew' was stolen from the Qur'an as Muhammad called them with that name in Madina
Nur Ilahi responded: Please clarify your statements above. And please give sources, because your post is very contradictory.
What are you trying to explain. I really cannot see head or tail.
My response: First of all recall the time death was approaching Jacob (Ya'qub) as revealed in Qur'an 2:133 and others. Abul Ala Maududi quoted Talmud quoting this verse. See his commentary chapter 2:133 vol.1 p113. Jacob was named 'Israel' and the 'One who wrestled with God and defeated God' according to their history. As they called themselves Children of Israel (a name not given to them by Allah) instead of Muslims, Allah called them with that name after the Apostleship of Muhammad. This was the case also with the Christians, from Qur'an chapter 5:14, "And from those who call themsleves christians" . Here Allah is reporting what they called themselves. Remember also the case of Zayd when Allah said We should call him with his father's name. Allah never called anyone with a name besides a 'Muslim'. You know that they were also addressed as Ahl-al-Kitab.
I hope you know that there are many commentary and translation of the holy Qur'an each dealing on specific subject matter. Please try to possess such books.
If you carefully study the OT and NT espeially also their commentary, you will come to the conclusion that the OT and NT were written after the Revelation of the Qur'an.
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honeto
 
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bullet Posted: 17 December 2008 at 10:08am
Fiendship writes: "you will come to the conclusion that the OT and NT were written after the Revelation of the Qur'an. "
 
I agree with you on that but then with that conclusion, they (OT/NT) are of no authority to us, and we the Muslims should not (and we don't) base any of our argument on its contents other than only to show referances from them to counter a claim by those who believe it to be God's word, without alterations. 
 
Hasan 


Edited by honeto - 17 December 2008 at 10:10am
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Angela
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bullet Posted: 17 December 2008 at 5:59pm
Actually Friendship, the OT or Tanakh was written down from oral tradition around 600BC by Jews in Babylon, Alexandria and other locations. The NT's earliest books are about 60AD - 100AD. The Quran was revealed in the 7th Century...if anything the Quran is a continuation of the previous two books.

The problem here is one must separate the term Jew into the secular. You are talking about a time period where of the two Israelite kingdoms only the Kingdom of Judah was surviving. The 10 tribes had been smashed and scattered and the "Israelites" were no more, it was only the tribe of Judah with a few Levite priests.

Those monotheistic worshipers in the area of the Kingdom of Judah were called Jews by their comtemporaries. Muslim (an arabic word) was not used to describe monotheistic followers of God did not come into practice until after Muhammed (pbuh) was called as a Prophet.

One thing that can be agreed upon is that the line of Prophets descended through the tribe of Judah to John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazerath. Despite what came after them, they lived and "died" as Jews. They worshipped in the Jewish Temple which meant they had to circumsised, bar mitzvah'd and purified as Jews/members of the faith of the Jewish people.

There success or failure at changing the hearts of their brethern. But, we have to recognize that even though Muhammed (pbuh) was born to a pagan family, but returned Islam to his people, didn't change his "Arabness."

As citizens of Judah, as members of the tribe of Judah, John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazerath were jews. Their religious definition can be debated until the Last Day, but in the end they were Messangers, Jewish Men and great teachers.

I always find any denial of their birthrites to smack of anti-semitism and racism. Its not about being of the "chosen" people or God being racist. Its a simple tribal/political/racial fact that Jesus was a Jew. I don't believe God is a racist, but God has promised blessings to the progeny of Abraham and Isaac....he did this also with Ishmael. Recognizing these covenants is important because they are promises from the Lord to his people.
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bullet Posted: 17 December 2008 at 7:46pm

No offense Angela I find your post enlightening but also sad. With such a great being who possess unimaginable power we are still arguing about who is chosen. Why does God bless a certain people and not others? To me the Bible smells of ethnocentrism in my opinion.

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"
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Nazarene
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bullet Posted: 18 December 2008 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Abraham, Moses, Jesus all worshipped The One True God.
 
They submitted to the law of The Creator. So they were Muslims.
 
They were neither Jews nor Christians.
 
If people say that the Jesus was a Jew, then Jesus was worshipping to a god that was racist. And of course that was impossible. And some people say that he was a Christian. That is also an impossibility. Nothing in the Bible says that Jesus was a Christian or that the religion of Jesus was Christianity. Nothing!
 peace to all
  well said!
we teach are kids all men are created equal {but we'er the ones going to heaven and those over there are not.}
 
we say " god loves the rightious " {but only by OUR deffinition of the term}
 
i asked a beloved of mine why he was a baptist ,
he said: the others " didn't keep it right" .
 
i said :" but you use the same book "
he replied :" his church keeps to the { true interpetaion .}"
 
i said : but i thought the bible was the difinitive word?
he replied: it truly is the  difinitive
 
i said : according to your interpetaion.
 
leland
 


Edited by Nazarene - 06 February 2009 at 9:14pm
love for all conquers all
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Angela
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bullet Posted: 19 December 2008 at 11:54am
Originally posted by Hyposonic

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">No offense Angela I find your post enlightening but also sad. With such a great being who possess unimaginable power we are still arguing about who is chosen. Why does God bless a certain people and not others? To me the Bible smells of ethnocentrism in my opinion.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN>



I think there is a difference between blessings and supremacy. Those who are obedient to God earn rewards in this life and in the next. Sometimes those blessings are so great that they follow the family.

Father Abraham had two sons, each of those two sons have expanded to millions and millions of people. People who don't even know they are descended of Father Abraham.

Now, there is a saying in the Book of Mormon over and over again "Wherefore, if ye shall be obedient to the commandments, and endure to the end, ye shall be saved at the last day.'

Blessings are not permanent...they can be taken away if you fall from Grace. In the Book of Mormon, the children of Nephi are told that as long as they keep the commandments they will prosper, but if they fall, they will dwindle. Thus, when they fell into wickedness they were destroyed.

Abraham's blessings were that his sons would build great nations and be blessed, but if those children, Israeli or Arab fail to obey God, they don't receive those blessings.

Its not about racism. Prophets have been blessed over and over, but is it not the truth that with few exceptions most of the Prophets are of the line of Abraham. I mean, I would not be shocked in the least if Muhammed (pbuh) was a direct descendant of Ishmael.

However, does this mean that an Indonesian cannot earn blessings. No, of course not. He has the ability just like everyone else. God is not a racist. He created us all. The Bible however, does smack of racism. I will not deny that. The Bible has sexism all through it too. Books labelled heresy by the early church talked about early Christian teachers being women and referred to Mary Magdalene, Martha and the Other Mary as disciples with the same status as the men. But, when the writings were gathered to the "official" collection known as the Bible, it was by men. And we all know that humans are fallible.

None of this changes the fact that in the Talmud, Bible and Quran, the blessings are described has being on the descendants of Abraham and Isaac. 37:113 in the Quran, but I recently read this whole chapter and the blessings are described for other prophets too.

"The Chosen" is an arrogant claim. We are all called and chosen of God. Its our responsibily to answer that call and deserve to be chosen.
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Nazarene
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bullet Posted: 06 January 2009 at 3:41pm
well said angela, i see much truth reply , thank you.
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leland
love for all conquers all
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Friendship
 
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bullet Posted: 07 January 2009 at 1:33am
Assalamu alaikum.

Angela Posting: I like discussing with you for most of what you say is an explanation of the Teaching of Muhammad Rasulullah. May Allah bless you!. Now Muhammad Rasulullah is the only Quraysh whose lineage from both parents is traceable to Ismael and Abraham. I am now seriously contemplating that Muhammad Rasulullah from his mothers side and grandfather might have had cousins from the Chidren of Israel. Abdul Mutallab was a very influential man in Madina and likewise I think the Banu Qaynuqa (or one of the Jewish tribes). There could have been marriages rom the two groups. I also read the book of Mormon but did not pay too much attention to the contents.
The Children of Israel were specially chosn by Allah for teaching Islam to mankind and not for the purpose of them to be insulted and abused. No one is immune from the wrath and displeasure of Allah on doing what they did against the Message of Allah. This is the whole teaching of Muhammad. They should be pitied (if a good word to use) for unlike the followers of Muhammad their Shari'a ws lost for year about 5 centuries. They were only to read it on the sabbatical years. Only the Levi tribe were appointed as Priests and any tribe doing their job will be killed. So what do you expect from them? The holy Qur'an clearly mentioned that there were among them many that obeyed Musa. Probably no one committed any sin during the period of Joshua, except that one who disobeyed the Lord in the baltle of Ai. To abuse the Jews or hate them is indirectly abusing Allah and hating Him. The Qur'an on the other hand is protected from adulteration, alteration etc. But those reading it do not even understand its contents lest to invent a needle!
Friendship.
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