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believer

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Topic: Blind faith?
Posted: 28 November 2008 at 8:41am

1 John 4

Test the Spirits

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Where did that idea of blind faith come from?

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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Nazarene
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Posted: 02 December 2008 at 4:00am

Originally posted by believer

1 John 4

Test the Spirits

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Where did that idea of blind faith come from?

i agree, the first place( or person ) i started with was PAUL. AND YOU KNOW WHAT I NOITICED !! that paul dosn't repeat one teaching of jesus,not one.
he talks real pritty though. and the world followed.

love for all conquers all

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Nazarene
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Posted: 17 February 2009 at 5:23am

if you blind yourself, you will be blind.

peace

leland

love for all conquers all

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believer

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Posted: 18 March 2009 at 2:50pm

WHAT? Sorry friend but you are confused.

Check these out:

Alive in Christ

1. Jesus
  1. "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes," (John 5:21).
2. Paul
  1. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive," (1 Cor. 15:22).
Anxiety
1. Jesus
  1. "For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing?" (Matt. 6:25).
2. Paul
  1. "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God," (Phil. 4:6).
Atonement
1. Jesus
  1. "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep," (John 10:11)
2. Paul
  1. "and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma," (Eph. 5:2).
Deity of Jesus
1. Jesus
  1. "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:58). Compare with Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."
2. Paul
  1. "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Col. 2:9). See also, Phil. 2:5-8.
Forgiveness
1. Jesus
  1. "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt. 6:14).
2. Paul
  1. "And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you," (Eph. 4:32).
Jesus is the only way
1. Jesus
  1. "Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me," (John 14:6).
2. Paul
  1. "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," (1 Tim. 2:5).
Justification by faith
1. Jesus
  1. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24). See also John 3:16-18; Luke 18:9-13.
2. Paul
  1. "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
Law, the
1. Jesus
  1. "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17).
2. Paul
  1. "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law," (Rom. 3:31).
  2. "What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise," (Gal. 3:17).
Law, living the
1. Jesus
  1. "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; ¹⁹ Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself," (Matt. 19:18).
2. Paul
  1. "Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. ⁹ For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." ¹⁰ Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law," (Rom. 13:8-10)
Predestination
1. Jesus
  1. "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given," (Matt. 19:11).
  2. "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
  3. "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day," (John 6:44).
  4. "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father," (John 6:65).
2. Paul
  1. "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will... ¹¹ also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will," (Eph. 1:5,11).
Resurrection
1. Jesus
  1. "The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; ²³ and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day," (Matt. 17:22-23).
2. Paul
  1. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (1 Cor. 15:3-4).
Rewards and Punishment
1. Jesus
  1. "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds," (Matt. 16:27).
2. Paul
  1. "who will render to every man according to his deeds," (Rom. 2:6).
Sinfulness of man
1. Jesus
  1. "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man," (Matt. 15:19).
2. Paul
  1. "There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one," (Rom. 3:11-12).
Tradition
1. Jesus
  1. "And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3).
2. Paul
  1. "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ," (Col. 2:8).
Works Righteousness denied

Jesus
1. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' ²³ "And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness," (Matt. 7:22-23).
Paul

"Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith," (Gal. 3:11).

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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Hayfa
Female Islam
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Joined: 07 June 2005
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Posts: 2370

Posted: 19 March 2009 at 8:29am

Yes but Paul took away the laws that Jesus came to uphold.. BIG difference..

it is interesting... that people follow Paul rather than Jesus himself. Jesus lived by the laws that came before him. He did not 'change' or eliminate the laws..

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

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Hayfa
Female Islam
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Joined: 07 June 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2370

Posted: 19 March 2009 at 8:32am

ahh back to blind faith...

how do you define 'blind'? Do you mean that people do without 'thought?' Do it just cause their parents did?

Yes it is interesting.. here in the west 'authority' has little meaning.. obedience is not very common. "Question Authority' is a common mantra. That is at a juxtaposition to 'religion' to a degree.

Maybe 'blind faith' is when you haven't even thought much about what you 'believe'..

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

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Mansoor_ali
Male Islam
Senior Member
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Joined: 25 September 2008
Location: Pakistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 581

Posted: 21 March 2009 at 4:02pm

Originally posted by Hayfa

Yes but Paul took away the laws that Jesus came to uphold.. BIG difference..

it is interesting... that people follow Paul rather than Jesus himself. Jesus lived by the laws that came before him. He did not 'change' or eliminate the laws..

To believer

Topic: Paul the Corrupter

Thomas Jefferson

"Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."

Jeremy Bentham (English Philosopher)

"If Christianity needed an Anti-Christ, they needed look no farther than Paul." (Paraphrased. Looking for a copy of "Not Paul, but Jesus" in order to retrieve the exact quote.)

Bishop John S. Spong (Episcopal Bishop of Newark)

"Paul's words are not the Words of God. They are the words of Paul- a vast difference."
(Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, p. 104, Harper San Francisco, 1991).

Visit: Refutation of the false apostle Paul

http://islamic-answers.com/jesus__words_only

Some extra refutations as bonuses are included:

1: Pauline corruption of Biblical Analysis

http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Pauline_Corruption_of_Biblical_Analysis.pdf

2: Jude's Epistle - More Evidence of rift between Jerusalem and Paul

http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Jude_s_Epistle__More_Evidence_of_Rift_Between_
Jerusalem_and_Paul__.pdf

3: Was Paul or James' Church the more successful evangelists ?

http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Was_Paul_or_James__Church_the_more_succesfull_Evangelist.pdf

4: Jesus or Paul ? - Lecture by a former Christian Priest

http://islamic-answers.com/jesus_or_paul_____audio_lecture_

For more info check:

http://islamic-answers.com/christianity

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believer

Guest Group

Joined: 08 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1397

Posted: 23 March 2009 at 9:22am

LOL! Can any of us fully live by the Laws the way Jesus did?

If you think you are without fault you are fooling yourself.

I didn't know that Jefferson, Jeremy Bentam was a prophet of GOD, Bishop John S. Spong does not necessarily have his head on straight.

Check this out:

61:14

You, you those who believed, be God's supporters , as/like Jesus Mary's son said to the faithful and pure friends/deciples : "Who my victoriors/supporters to God?" The faithful and pure friends/deciples said: "We are God's victoriors/supporters ." So a group of people from Israel's sons and daughters believed, and a group of people disbelieved, so We supported those who believed over their enemy, so they became conquering/defeating

Paul's message is the one that is victorious and able to prevail over the disbelievers according to the Quran. If the Quran is true then Paul's message is true.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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Author	Message
believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Topic: Blind faith? Posted: 28 November 2008 at 8:41am
	1 John 4 Test the Spirits 1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Where did that idea of blind faith come from?
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Nazarene Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 05 September 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 302	Posted: 02 December 2008 at 4:00am
	*Originally posted by believer* 1 John 4 Test the Spirits 1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Where did that idea of blind faith come from? i agree, the first place( or person ) i started with was PAUL. AND YOU KNOW WHAT I NOITICED !! that paul dosn't repeat one teaching of jesus,not one. he talks real pritty though. and the world followed.
	love for all conquers all
	IP Logged

Nazarene Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 05 September 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 302	Posted: 17 February 2009 at 5:23am
	*if you blind yourself, you will be blind.* peace leland
	love for all conquers all
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believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 18 March 2009 at 2:50pm
	WHAT? Sorry friend but you are confused. Check these out: Alive in Christ Jesus "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes," (John 5:21). Paul "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive," (1 Cor. 15:22). Anxiety Jesus "For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing?" (Matt. 6:25). Paul "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God," (Phil. 4:6). Atonement Jesus "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep," (John 10:11) Paul "and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma," (Eph. 5:2). Deity of Jesus Jesus "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:58). Compare with Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you." Paul "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Col. 2:9). See also, Phil. 2:5-8. Forgiveness Jesus "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt. 6:14). Paul "And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you," (Eph. 4:32). Jesus is the only way Jesus "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me," (John 14:6). Paul "For there is one God, and* one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," (1 Tim. 2:5). Justification by faith Jesus "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24). See also John 3:16-18; Luke 18:9-13. Paul "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1). Law, the Jesus "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17). Paul "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law," (Rom. 3:31). "What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise," (Gal. 3:17). Law, living the Jesus "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; ¹⁹ Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself," (Matt. 19:18). Paul "Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. ⁹ For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." ¹⁰ Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law," (Rom. 13:8-10) Predestination Jesus "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given," (Matt. 19:11). "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37). "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day," (John 6:44). "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father," (John 6:65). Paul "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will... ¹¹ also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will," (Eph. 1:5,11). Resurrection Jesus "The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; ²³ and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day," (Matt. 17:22-23). Paul "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (1 Cor. 15:3-4). Rewards and Punishment Jesus "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds," (Matt. 16:27). Paul "who will render to every man according to his deeds," (Rom. 2:6). Sinfulness of man Jesus "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man," (Matt. 15:19). Paul "There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one," (Rom. 3:11-12). Tradition Jesus "And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3). Paul "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ," (Col. 2:8). Works Righteousness denied Jesus "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' ²³ "And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness," (Matt. 7:22-23). Paul "Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith," (Gal. 3:11).
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
	IP Logged

Hayfa Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2370	Posted: 19 March 2009 at 8:29am
	Yes but Paul took away the laws that Jesus came to uphold.. BIG difference.. it is interesting... that people follow Paul rather than Jesus himself. Jesus lived by the laws that came before him. He did not 'change' or eliminate the laws..
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
	IP Logged

Hayfa Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2370	Posted: 19 March 2009 at 8:32am
	ahh back to blind faith... how do you define 'blind'? Do you mean that people do without 'thought?' Do it just cause their parents did? Yes it is interesting.. here in the west 'authority' has little meaning.. obedience is not very common. "Question Authority' is a common mantra. That is at a juxtaposition to 'religion' to a degree. Maybe 'blind faith' is when you haven't even thought much about what you 'believe'..
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
	IP Logged

Mansoor_ali Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 581	Posted: 21 March 2009 at 4:02pm
	*Originally posted by Hayfa* Yes but Paul took away the laws that Jesus came to uphold.. BIG difference.. it is interesting... that people follow Paul rather than Jesus himself. Jesus lived by the laws that came before him. He did not 'change' or eliminate the laws.. To believer Topic: Paul the Corrupter Thomas Jefferson "Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus." Jeremy Bentham (English Philosopher) "If Christianity needed an Anti-Christ, they needed look no farther than Paul." (Paraphrased. Looking for a copy of "Not Paul, but Jesus" in order to retrieve the exact quote.) Bishop John S. Spong (Episcopal Bishop of Newark) "Paul's words are not the Words of God. They are the words of Paul- a vast difference." (Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, p. 104, Harper San Francisco, 1991). Visit: Refutation of the false apostle Paul `http://islamic-answers.com/jesus__words_only` `Some extra refutations as bonuses are included:` `1: Pauline corruption of Biblical Analysis` `http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Pauline_Corruption_of_Biblical_Analysis.pdf` `2: Jude's Epistle - More Evidence of rift between Jerusalem and Paul` `http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Jude_s_Epistle__More_Evidence_of_Rift_Between_` `Jerusalem_and_Paul__.pdf` `3: Was Paul or James' Church the more successful evangelists ?` `http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/i/Was_Paul_or_James__Church_the_more_succesfull_Evangelist.pdf` `4: Jesus or Paul ? - Lecture by a former Christian Priest` `http://islamic-answers.com/jesus_or_paul_____audio_lecture_` `For more info check:` `http://islamic-answers.com/christianity`
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believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 23 March 2009 at 9:22am
	LOL! Can any of us fully live by the Laws the way Jesus did? If you think you are without fault you are fooling yourself. I didn't know that Jefferson, Jeremy Bentam was a prophet of GOD, Bishop John S. Spong does not necessarily have his head on straight. Check this out: 61:14 You, you those who believed, be God's supporters , as/like Jesus Mary's son said to the faithful and pure friends/deciples : "Who my victoriors/supporters to God?" The faithful and pure friends/deciples said: "We are God's victoriors/supporters ." So a group of people from Israel's sons and daughters believed, and a group of people disbelieved, so We supported those who believed over their enemy, so they became conquering/defeating Paul's message is the one that is victorious and able to prevail over the disbelievers according to the Quran. If the Quran is true then Paul's message is true.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
	IP Logged