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Andalus
 
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Topic: Proud of my Ecological footprint!
    Posted: 09 November 2008 at 10:47am
I am proud to say that I have far exceeded my goals and expectations and have racked up a nice fat foot print!!!!
This ultra liberal sophistry claims that if everyone lived like me we would need 7:1 earths! The fallacy with this kind of pure drivel is that not everyone is "productive". It is a matter of ratinal thinking, something the sheeple who blindly follow the new religion of environmentalism are incapable of doing. If you produce, you must consume, if you do not produce, you do not consume. Idealism is rarely pragmatic. One will not over produce because there will be a net loss, hence no incentive.
 
 
I am even more elated that it takes 31 acres of land to support my lifestyle!!! So maybe we should take the hook, line, and sinker of these environmentalist followers and all rub sticks together and not produce anything. Nothing like living in the 15th century! Blind following of a faith without a sound bases is wrong, whether it is a bible thumper proclaiming the resurrection of Jeeeezuz, a suicide bomber rushing out to extinguish themselves because some ayotollah says it is a good idea, or an environmentalist nut job.
 
Just my thoughts on the whole matter.
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Quote Hunter Replybullet Posted: 19 December 2008 at 12:06am
I'm no environmentalist myself, and thus have avoided this section altogether until tonight. As the only regular working-class person in a very groovy, healthy-crunchy, "alternative" (they never state an alternative to what ??) neighborhood, in a groovy, politically correct town, I particularly enjoyed this post. In fact I laughed so hard I almost choked. I have a bumper sticker on my truck that says "Save a cow, eat a vegetarian", and as soon as I get around to it, the next one will say "Hug a logger", to counter all the ones in my neighborhood that say "Dirt hugging tree loving whatever" or is it tree hugging dirt loving? I don't remember. The last job I did was logging; now I work in a machine-shop. Anyhow, what I wanted to point out is the hypocrisy I see with the "green movement" as well as many of the green people I observe everyday. I don't know how many times I've been stuck behind either a twelve year old Subaru or twenty year old Volvo station wagon spewing clouds of blue oil-smoke, to the extent that the environmental bumper stickers are so coated with oil and carbon they're all but illegible. Why? Because hippies have an aversion to technology, therefore don't take care of their cars. I'd wager a bet that my Ford F-250 produces less yearly emissions than the average neighborhood Subaru, both because I run fully synthetic oil (less friction means more power, better fuel economy and thus lower emissions), and more importantly because I take care of it. My groovy next door neighbor and his family had to get evacuated from their house last year by the fire dept. At least one of them had to be hospitalized overnight. Why? He had never bothered to service his furnace. The carbon monoxide levels in his house were so high, the CO alarms were going off inside my house! If we were to realistically measure and compare my co2 "footprint" to his, I'll guarantee mine is better. The solution to environmental issues have and always will be solved by people who understand technology, not by those who oppose it. Or we could click our heels three times, rub two sticks together and as you suggest, revert to the middle ages... 
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Quote love Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2008 at 12:46am
What ever your stance on the environment is...just do what you can to make the world better and admitting that you're human is part of it.  I used to drive a lot but when my nephew got asthma at 3 years of age I learned how bad the particulate matter is in my city as a result of smog.  Not wanting to continue funding the war in Iraq, and with the increase of gas prices, and smog that's killing all of the trees in my city, I quit driving because I could still get around w/o putting people's health at risk.
At less than 10 ppm the particulates from combustion engines can get inside the alevolii sacs in the lungs and never come out.

The green revolution is precisely why it started to resonate w/people across all boundaries because people were like sheep...blindly following the same old way of living.  No one said we have to live backwards.  Just recognize that there's nothing wrong with consuming, but how much we're consuming is an issue.  Over consumption is a major problem. 

Just hope that people realize this before our great great grandchildren don't have enough food, shelter, or clothing because our generation wasted all of the natural resources. 

"Only when the last tree has died
and the last river has been poisoned
and the last fish has been caught
will we realize that we can't eat money."
-Cree proverb



Edited by love - 21 December 2008 at 12:49am
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2008 at 2:31am
Originally posted by Hunter

I'm no environmentalist myself, and thus have avoided this section altogether until tonight. As the only regular working-class person in a very groovy, healthy-crunchy, "alternative" (they never state an alternative to what ??) neighborhood, in a groovy, politically correct town, I particularly enjoyed this post. In fact I laughed so hard I almost choked. I have a bumper sticker on my truck that says "Save a cow, eat a vegetarian", and as soon as I get around to it, the next one will say "Hug a logger", to counter all the ones in my neighborhood that say "Dirt hugging tree loving whatever" or is it tree hugging dirt loving? I don't remember. The last job I did was logging; now I work in a machine-shop. Anyhow, what I wanted to point out is the hypocrisy I see with the "green movement" as well as many of the green people I observe everyday. I don't know how many times I've been stuck behind either a twelve year old Subaru or twenty year old Volvo station wagon spewing clouds of blue oil-smoke, to the extent that the environmental bumper stickers are so coated with oil and carbon they're all but illegible. Why? Because hippies have an aversion to technology, therefore don't take care of their cars. I'd wager a bet that my Ford F-250 produces less yearly emissions than the average neighborhood Subaru, both because I run fully synthetic oil (less friction means more power, better fuel economy and thus lower emissions), and more importantly because I take care of it. My groovy next door neighbor and his family had to get evacuated from their house last year by the fire dept. At least one of them had to be hospitalized overnight. Why? He had never bothered to service his furnace. The carbon monoxide levels in his house were so high, the CO alarms were going off inside my house! If we were to realistically measure and compare my co2 "footprint" to his, I'll guarantee mine is better. The solution to environmental issues have and always will be solved by people who understand technology, not by those who oppose it. Or we could click our heels three times, rub two sticks together and as you suggest, revert to the middle ages... 
 
 
It is a shame that a more sane rational approach cannot be achieved. As of now, the environmental nuts have hijacked the discussion. What these nuts do not understand is that their high priests (such as Al Gore) all have financial gain in the green movement in the form of "green" industry. Al Gore cannot believe the crap he is preaching or else he would not be adding a lions share of "carbon" emissions to the environment.
 
I will try harder to increase my carbon foot print!
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2008 at 2:50am
Originally posted by love

What ever your stance on the environment is...just do what you can to make the world better and admitting that you're human is part of it.  I used to drive a lot but when my nephew got asthma at 3 years of age I learned how bad the particulate matter is in my city as a result of smog.  Not wanting to continue funding the war in Iraq, and with the increase of gas prices, and smog that's killing all of the trees in my city, I quit driving because I could still get around w/o putting people's health at risk.
 
 
That is very comendable. That will give your high priests such as Al Gore more oil while he jets around the globe. Although your efforts are well intended, your belief is misguided and based upon unsound judgements.
 
 
 
 

At less than 10 ppm the particulates from combustion engines can get inside the alevolii sacs in the lungs and never come out.
 
So can allergines from natural occuring sources......why not build a sterile bubble and really make some progress.
 
 
 
 
 

The green revolution is precisely why it started to resonate w/people across all boundaries because people were like sheep...blindly following the same old way of living. 
 
 
The green revolution started on unsound science, fudged data from the likes Hansen (another high priest) is part of the entire religous cult known as "environmentalism". Even with his admitted fudged data, it does not matter to the followers, their faith is strong, even in the face of willful distortions of data. It is a new faith that is a tool to control the lives of people. It is all about control. The only blind following that is going on are the mindless masses that are willing recipients of nonsensical propoganda.
 
 
No one said we have to live backwards. 
 
 
 
Giving up driving? That is backward, especially when your high priests are jetting around the world.
 
 
 
 
 
 Just recognize that there's nothing wrong with consuming, but how much we're consuming is an issue.  Over consumption is a major problem. 
 
 
Consumption is based on production. The dangerous road that you movement is taking is one that the government should control the economy and regulate what it thinks is appropriate production. Ever heard of communism?
 
 
 
 
Just hope that people realize this before our great great grandchildren don't have enough food, shelter, or clothing because our generation wasted all of the natural resources. 
 
 
And often over quoted slogan of the green movement. Also, a lot of rubbish.
 
 


"Only when the last tree has died
and the last river has been poisoned
and the last fish has been caught
will we realize that we can't eat money."
-Cree proverb

 
 
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time. -A. Lincoln
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Quote love Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2008 at 5:58pm
Andalus,
Thank you for your comments and I admit I really like your name.  I believe we're on the same side of the issue just seeing things from different perspectives.  I hear what you say and I understand your concern.  What I meant by the green movement is that it's good that more people are aware.  But not so great that having gone main stream has also diluted or "green washed" the message while the profiteers are raking in the money. 
By the way, giving up my car was a personal choice esp. after a minor accident that would've cost me more money to fix it than if I just use public transit. I'm not asking others to do what I did, but what I did made sense to me.  Many people who live in big cities can't afford cars or have the parking space on their street to leave their cars parked. 


The name for the discussion board is "Green Forum" not "Environmentalist" or "Environmentalism" and I don't follow any "ism(s)".  You should give people an opportunity to explain themselves before labeling them.

By the way, why do you think of Al Gore as a "high priest"?  The real mover for the environment was a woman in her 50's named Rachel Carson who discovered that the pesticide DDT causes cancer.  In 1970 DDT was banned from being used in the U.S.  We need people who actually do the work to safeguard the public health.  http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/Newsletter/articles/v13DDTLegacy.cfm
What's sad is that the same corporation that makes DDT sells it to farmers in Africa and S. America and Asia.  So while production is important, not everything that is produced is good for consumption. 

As for the other person you thought as a "high priest", and I'm guessing you're referring to Dr. James E. Hansen from Columbia University, please provide the logic and data to counter his statements on global warming.
There's one thing to make a statement that his science is "fudged" and there's another to provide material that it has indeed been "fudged".  Please provide your sound science to counter Hansen's.

"Our task is to widen our circle of compassion
to embrace all living beings and all of nature."
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2008 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by love

Andalus,
Thank you for your comments and I admit I really like your name.  I believe we're on the same side of the issue just seeing things from different perspectives.  I hear what you say and I understand your concern.  What I meant by the green movement is that it's good that more people are aware.  But not so great that having gone main stream has also diluted or "green washed" the message while the profiteers are raking in the money. 
 
 
But when speaking of the green movement, one must speak in terms of generalizations that describe in essence what the hreen movement is synonymous with. It is of the environmentalist movement and it is a theory not founded on solid proof.
 
 



The name for the discussion board is "Green Forum" not "Environmentalist" or "Environmentalism" and I don't follow any "ism(s)".  You should give people an opportunity to explain themselves before labeling them.
 
 
The green movement is a part of environmentalism. It is born of the environmentalist movement.
 
 

By the way, why do you think of Al Gore as a "high priest"? 
 
 
One of the high priests. I would think his noble award pretty much reinforces my belief.
 
 
 
 The real mover for the environment was a woman in her 50's named Rachel Carson who discovered that the pesticide DDT causes cancer.  In 1970 DDT was banned from being used in the U.S.  We need people who actually do the work to safeguard the public health.  http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/Newsletter/articles/v13DDTLegacy.cfm
What's sad is that the same corporation that makes DDT sells it to farmers in Africa and S. America and Asia.  So while production is important, not everything that is produced is good for consumption. 
 
 
 
Rachel Carson's unfounded predictions was the mover for the ban of DDT, and given that her ideas were flawed, she is directly responsible for the millions of deaths that resulted from the ban on DDT. Another western environmentalst do=gooder poking around in the affairs of others all in the name of good intentions, which counts heavier than good science, and with horrble results. The only claim of Carson's that has been shown to be true is the thinning of egg shells of preditory birds. Her claims about human health have never been reproduced by science.
 
 

As for the other person you thought as a "high priest", and I'm guessing you're referring to Dr. James E. Hansen from Columbia University, please provide the logic and data to counter his statements on global warming.
There's one thing to make a statement that his science is "fudged" and there's another to provide material that it has indeed been "fudged".  Please provide your sound science to counter Hansen's.
 
 
 
Hansen's GISS recently released their findings stating that October was alarmingly warm, a full .78 C increase from the normal. The hottest october on record! Let's send our economy back into the stone ages with some loverly cap and trade moves! Right? Well, when one studied the claim closer, it could be seen that most of the "extra" heating was from Russia, and what can be further revealed is that the temperatures that were assigned were taken from September, not October. This blatant attempt to willfully distort data to force it to fit a belief is a down right shame. But this does not matter to the faithful, for faith is the guiding factor of enviromentalism, not fact. I am not willing to sell out my economy on a vague theory that is not based on solid research.
 
I love Dr' Hansen's style, just "cut and paste" data to make it all work. Dr Hansen is incompetent and it is shameful that he is trying his hardest to destroy our economy and way of life all for his new found faith.
 
 


"Our task is to widen our circle of compassion
to embrace all living beings and all of nature."
-Albert Einstein
 
Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. -Oscar Wilde
 
 
Have a good evening love.
 
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Quote Hunter Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2008 at 1:34am
Love, in your last post, you mentioned not labeling people, or at least not before listening to what they had to say. That's a valid point, and one with implications beyond the scope of this thread. It's also something I myself am often guilty of-- point well taken. However, the issue I have with the environmental movement (I have to call it something), is that it too often resorts to an emotional rather than a logical appeal. It tends to be guilt and fear based, rather than offering rational alternatives. The ice-caps are melting, seas are rising, climate is changing, people are getting sick and it's all my fault!! Or it's all your fault!!  It isn't that I don't care about the environment, but I'm unmoved by empty rhetoric and emotional appeals alone. Like the example I used earlier, the synthetic motor oil I run in my truck is a win win situation; I win, the truck wins, and the environment wins-- no one looses. Here's another: Sthil makes a type of bar and chain oil (for a chainsaw) that rather than petro-oil, is actually vegetable oil with some additives. It's environmentally friendly, fully bio-degradable, it doesn't cost anymore, and according to a conversation I had with some other professional loggers, it performs just as well. Win win. If it cost twice as much, or caused me to burn through twice as many chains, I wouldn't give it a glance. Be it a policy, a power plant, a lightbulb or just a gallon of bar@chain oil, it has to make sence, and it has to help the environment without hurting me, finantially or otherwise. Islam won me over, not by attacking Christianity (or anything else), not through fear or guilt, but by making its own arguments. As the Quran itself says, clear truths and convincing arguments.
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