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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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BMZ
 
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bullet Posted: 25 May 2009 at 7:53pm
Originally posted by Fatah-Momin

Shia can marry their Step sisters.

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I am restricted to one post a day and that post is on moderation que, if moderators allow I will only post Shia source in shia words and will NOT interpolate with my input member can read and judge for themselves, IF sHIA ARE KAFIR OR NOT


Hello, Fatah-Momin

You may quote above sort of material when you are debating a Shia Muslim but please do not title as you did on the top of your post, basing on their ahaadith.

Basing on those unreliable collections of their ahadith, we cannot call them Kafir, as we too have many ridiculous ahaadith in our collections. Ahaadith do not determine whether one is a Muslim or Kafir.

Salaams
BMZ

Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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Fatah-Momin
 
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bullet Posted: 25 May 2009 at 9:33pm
BMZ it is good to know that you feel pain for your Shia brothers, I am yet to debate a Shia who will claim any of their hadiths to be weak or Sahi. You are first person to claim that, it is odd as you have not claimed that you are Shia. Well for your further knowledge here is link to shia most reliable site from where I got the screen shot. Female child from step mother is a step sister [if you dont know] http://www.balagh.net/english/ahl_bayt/fatima_the_gracious/17.htm

Again like I said I will not post my opinions I am just posting images from Shia books and sources

According to this, a Mahram Male May it be Father, brother, Uncle can see a female in nude front and back without desire for lust.
Toohfa Nimaz(salah) Jafria Page#292

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myahya
 
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bullet Posted: 26 May 2009 at 10:29pm
Fatah-Momin, as I already said, Shia strongly believe that Quran is not corrupted and you can not prove the reverse. Bringing one or several ahadith from Shia sources is not enough and does not prove your claim. I can also bring some ahadith from Sunni references which say that Quran is corrupted. However, a detailed study in Quran and ALL ahadith proves that Quran in the present form is complete. That is it. And if you bring any hadith from any source, I would say that hadith is corrupted not Quran.

Also, the two permissions for marriage with sisters that you quoted (without bringing the reference!) do not prove that these are allowed in Shia. May be in Sunni a single hadith from a specific or famous book is enough to prove its claim, but this is not the way of decision making in Shia. In Shia a comprehensive professional study on Quran, history and hadith is needed before coming up with a claim.

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myahya
 
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bullet Posted: 26 May 2009 at 10:33pm
BMZ 4:24 does not allow Muta'a at all

What do you mean?! What does it allow then?

Edited by myahya - 26 May 2009 at 10:33pm
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BMZ
 
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bullet Posted: 27 May 2009 at 7:25am
Originally posted by myahya

BMZ 4:24 does not allow Muta'a at all

What do you mean?! What does it allow then?


It allows marriage!

The topic in the section 4:1-31 is all about marrying women, not having Muta'a with women.

It will be dishonest of anyone, who tries to justify the word Muta'a by taking Fa-mas-tam-ta'atum 
فمااستمتعم  to mean "You can do Muta'a" at all.

Please allow me to quote a few translations of 4:24 here:

Yusuf Ali: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

Muhammad Asad:And [forbidden to you are] all married women other than those whom you rightfully possess [through wedlock]: this is God's ordinance, binding upon you. But lawful to you are all [women] beyond these, for you to seek out, offering them of your possessions, taking them in honest wedlock, and not in fornication. And unto those with whom you desire to enjoy marriage, you shall give the dowers due to them; but you will incur no sin if, after [having agreed upon] this lawful due, you freely agree with one another upon anything [else]: behold, God is indeed all-knowing, wise.


Shakir:
And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

Note that Shakir was himself a Shia and translated the passage truthfully.


Sarwar, a Shia: You are forbidden to marry married women except your slave-girls. This is the decree of God. Besides these, it is lawful for you to marry other women if you pay their dower, maintain chastity and do not commit indecency. If you marry them for the appointed time you must pay their dowries.

(Note: Sarwar's translation is distorted. There is nothing in Arabic which shows, "If you marry them for the appointed time " in Qur'aan.

If you read the translation and commentary by Aqa Pooya and Ahmed Ali, it is the same distortion. Shakir did not. He commented in his translation that he had not translated Qur'aan to please anyone but only Allah.

The point is that Allah in Qur'aan talks about the institution of Marriage, not Muta'a.

There is nothing in Qur'aan about Muta'a.

Salaams
BMZ



Edited by BMZ - 27 May 2009 at 7:34pm
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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BMZ
 
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bullet Posted: 27 May 2009 at 7:39am
Originally posted by Fatah-Momin

BMZ it is good to know that you feel pain for your Shia brothers, I am yet to debate a Shia who will claim any of their hadiths to be weak or Sahi. You are first person to claim that, it is odd as you have not claimed that you are Shia.


For your information, I do not belong to any sect. I am neither a Sunni nor a Shia.  I gave up on every sect when I learned, studied and understood the simple Message of Qur'aan, which the Arabs of the 7th Century understood it so well that all of them followed, obeyed the Prophet and accepted Islam, without the help of any Tafsirs, Imams and Ahaadith.

Salaams
BMZ



Edited by BMZ - 27 May 2009 at 7:41am
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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honeto
 
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bullet Posted: 28 May 2009 at 6:20pm
Its true that division in Islamic belief came later, and such divisions are haram according to the Quran. The Quran is our ultimate source, we only can look for a Hadith when we need, in other words where details are needed to know that are not mentioned in the Quran.
Now, we know that from the topic of divorce and how it is addressed in the Quran, it cannot be possible that a book that shows that how unfavorable it is in the sight of Allah that a divorce take place, how it can be that a temporary marriage which will involve a divorce can be permitted?
Also it is more clear in Quran that how responsible a husband and father should be toward his wife, and children that it cannot say otherwise to allow temporary relationships which will create same responsibilities.
 
Islam through Quran teachs us logic and resposibilities, and temporary marriage is anything but that.
 
I have lived in Iran, and heard of it when I was there, never witnessed it. Heard that Imam Khumani has said it to be better than commiting zinna by the young. That may be true when we see where many young men do go in places like Pakistan to commit zinna. But in my opinion, its one social evil traded with another one.
Like I said, temorary or drive through marriage could not have been allowed when we see that how hard, discouraged, and lengthy the process of divorce is in Islam as mentioned in the Quran.
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 28 May 2009 at 6:42pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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BMZ
 
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bullet Posted: 29 May 2009 at 2:52am
Originally posted by honeto

Its true that division in Islamic belief came later, and such divisions are haram according to the Quran. The Quran is our ultimate source, we only can look for a Hadith when we need, in other words where details are needed to know that are not mentioned in the Quran.
Now, we know that from the topic of divorce and how it is addressed in the Quran, it cannot be possible that a book that shows that how unfavorable it is in the sight of Allah that a divorce take place, how it can be that a temporary marriage which will involve a divorce can be permitted?
Also it is more clear in Quran that how responsible a husband and father should be toward his wife, and children that it cannot say otherwise to allow temporary relationships which will create same responsibilities.
 
Islam through Quran teachs us logic and resposibilities, and temporary marriage is anything but that.
 
I have lived in Iran, and heard of it when I was there, never witnessed it. Heard that Imam Khumani has said it to be better than commiting zinna by the young. That may be true when we see where many young men do go in places like Pakistan to commit zinna. But in my opinion, its one social evil traded with another one.
Like I said, temorary or drive through marriage could not have been allowed when we see that how hard, discouraged, and lengthy the process of divorce is in Islam as mentioned in the Quran.
 
Hasan


Exactly. Ameen to that

BMZ

Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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