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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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myahya
 
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bullet Posted: 02 January 2009 at 6:42am

Chrysalis: I think what BMZ was saying was that the nature of the Mutaah is such - that no brother would like his sister to be in a 'temporary' marriage.

No difference, what I am saying is that the feeling of people must not change the religion. If something is Halal or Haram in religion (and it is proved) then it is. We can not argue based on what people would or would not like. Perhaps people are misunderstood about a religious context in a period of history, having bad feeling about that. One may think that the aim of Mutaah is sexual satisfaction and nothing else, while in my understanding it is not. As far as I know, Mutaah is a contract between the two. As long as each side sets a term and condition (e.g. not having sexual activity) and the other side accepts it, then they can not break the promise religiously.

Consider a Muslim brother and his Muslimeh sister. The sister is divorced or widow and is single. The sister would like to have a man. Now consider following hypothetical situations:

1-      The sister starts dating with strange men (even perhaps non Muslims) which is of course out of marriage and Haram, while she is to be endangered of committing fornication, a greater Haram.

2-      The sister starts getting know a Muslim through temporary marriage (with having the right of setting conditions as I said above) with the possible potentials for it to be eventually turned into permanent marriage and make a family.

3-      The sister bans any relationship on herself just waiting for a chance in which a suitable Muslim may come to her asking for a permanent marriage. A condition which may never take place in the rest of her life.

Now what do you think the opinion of the brother would be? Should it be still a straight NO?

Edited by myahya - 02 January 2009 at 7:06am
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Chrysalis
 
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bullet Posted: 03 January 2009 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by myahya

 

As long as each side sets a term and condition (e.g. not having sexual activity)

Interesting development in Mutaah now. So people actually 'contract' Mutaah only so they can have an interesting converstation about the weather over a cup of tea? Thats a temporary 'Marriage' ?
 
Consider a Muslim brother and his Muslimeh sister. The sister is divorced or widow and is single. The sister would like to have a man.
 
Temporarily?
 
My logic would say if a Muslimah wanted a man, she would like a permanent one - like I donno - in a Nikah perhaps???
 
Now consider following hypothetical situations:

<!--[if !supLists]-->1-      <!--[endif]-->The sister starts dating with strange men (even perhaps non Muslims) which is of course out of marriage and Haram, while she is to be endangered of committing fornication, a greater Haram.

<!--[if !supLists]-->2-      <!--[endif]-->The sister starts getting know a Muslim through temporary marriage (with having the right of setting conditions as I said above) with the possible potentials for it to be eventually turned into permanent marriage and make a family.

So basically what you are saying is, that Mutaah is "Islamic" Dating ? Getting to know a man before marriage, with possible potentials for a 'permanent' marriage?
 
In the first place, there is no need for such a Mutaah. Because according to ahadith, Muslims are allowed to meet/know a prospective spouse under Islamic limitations, without the elaborate/confusing/outdated need for a sham/temporary marriage. 
 
 

<!--[if !supLists]-->3-      <!--[endif]-->The sister bans any relationship on herself just waiting for a chance in which a suitable Muslim may come to her asking for a permanent marriage. A condition which may never take place in the rest of her life.

So what you are saying is, it is better for a woman to become a Temporary wife, and risk emotional baggage / a child - all the while knowing that this relationship is bound to end and is temporary and not even 'legally' recognized, save perhaps one country only.
I think the brother would prefer his sister became a 2nd wife - rather than a temporary one, since thats 'permanent'/legal - better for the woman, and her children. Wouldnt you think so?
 
 
 
 
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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myahya
 
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bullet Posted: 04 January 2009 at 2:34am
Interesting development in Mutaah now.

It is not a development. It is only different from what you had always thought of it.

So people actually 'contract' Mutaah only so they can have an interesting converstation about the weather over a cup of tea? Thats a temporary 'Marriage' ?

I did not say that it is only a conversation. I gave a possible example. Furthermore, it seems you are establishing a new development in Marriage which can only be named "Marriage" after the first sexual intercourse.

My logic would say if a Muslimah wanted a man, she would like a permanent one - like I donno - in a Nikah perhaps???

If it happens in the first place it is the best of course, making a family. But in reality the conditions do not always allow any individual in any situation marry permanently.

So basically what you are saying is, that Mutaah is "Islamic" Dating ? Getting to know a man before marriage, with possible potentials for a 'permanent' marriage?

Actually not, what I said was an instance. It is much wider than a dating. It can cover from a simple dating to permanent marriage.

Muslims are allowed to meet/know a prospective spouse under Islamic limitations, without the elaborate/confusing/outdated need for a sham/temporary marriage…. So what you are saying is, it is better for a woman to become a Temporary wife, and risk emotional baggage / a child - all the while knowing that this relationship is bound to end and is temporary and not even 'legally' recognized, save perhaps one country only.

 I do not generalize what is better for a Muslimeh woman. It is an individual dependent case and a Muslimeh woman has hypothetically the right to decide what is better for her (without committing any Haram) while she is not forced in any way to marry temporarily.

I have to say again that: whether it is legally recognized in today’s Muslim (Shia or Sunni or whatever) countries or not, it does not bring religious validity or invalidity to it in Islam. This issue (like many other similar controversial subjects) should be resolved through academic debate between Muslim Olamaas and experts in Islam to converge to the point that is REALLY the will of Allah swt and his Messenger. The will of Allah determines what Muslims should or shouldn’t do, not the reverse.

In addition, could you present a justification why there exist Zena statistics in Islamic societies with the presence of “Islamic dating + permanent marriage”?

I think the brother would prefer his sister became a 2nd wife - rather than a temporary one, since thats 'permanent'/legal - better for the woman, and her children. Wouldnt you think so?

In fact the wish of the brother does not guarantee that it happens for his sister, does it? 

Edited by myahya - 04 January 2009 at 2:49am
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Chrysalis
 
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bullet Posted: 05 January 2009 at 5:27am
Originally posted by myahya

Interesting development in Mutaah now.

It is not a development. It is only different from what you had always thought of it.
 
The origins of Mutaah, and its basic purpose is sexual satisfaction - for those who do not wish a longterm partner.



I did not say that it is only a conversation. I gave a possible example. Furthermore, it seems you are establishing a new development in Marriage which can only be named "Marriage" after the first sexual intercourse.
 
One of the primary and significant reasons for Marriage is sexual intimacy and children i.e a family. It is rare cases indeed when people get married simply for the company - sans intimacy. And even if certain people wish for such a r/ship due to whatever situation - Nikaah is still a perfectly valid option .  Mutaah is thus obsolete. People dont simply get married because they wish to 'Know one another' - which is why the instance you gave an example of, doesnt make sense at all. 


In addition, could you present a justification why there exist Zena statistics in Islamic societies with the presence of “Islamic dating + permanent marriage”?
i'm afraid I dont understand what you mean. Kindly clarify.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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myahya
 
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bullet Posted: 06 January 2009 at 4:22am

The origins of Mutaah, and its basic purpose is sexual satisfaction - for those who do not wish a longterm partner.

I do not know why you are pessimistically viewing that members of a society are definitely waiting to abuse any condition to escape from permanent marriage.

A healthy Muslim or even a human being (in soul, brain and faith) does not wish a short-term partner while he/she does really have all necessary conditions to make a good permanent partner and family.  Those who (in spite of having the conditions to make a family) do not wish a longterm partner to intentionally serve their Nafs will commit adultery even if they have permanent partner in a permanent marriage.

You know in Muslim societies people commit fornication or some other forms of Haram (like masturbation) or other great sins. Socially speaking, why do you think sticking to permanent marriage have not solved these problems? And what if, on the Last Day, we recognize that Mutaah was Halal and it could preserve thousands of Muslims (in history) from such sins but Muslims had wrongly banned it on themselves committing so many Harams instead?
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Chrysalis
 
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bullet Posted: 06 January 2009 at 5:12am
Originally posted by myahya

I do not know why you are pessimistically viewing that members of a society are definitely waiting to abuse any condition to escape from permanent marriage.

Considering the fact that a significant majority of Muslims today believe in orthodox Nikaah i.e. long term r/ships - and do not consider Mutaah to be a viable option, reflects that they are not wanting to escape permanent marriage. So, really I'm not pessimistic at all. The proponents of are simply validating all those elements of the society that turn thier back on Nikaah - by allowing them to fulfill thier Nafs outside of a non-temporary r/ship. 

Those who (in spite of having the conditions to make a family) do not wish a longterm partner to intentionally serve their Nafs will commit adultery even if they have permanent partner in a permanent marriage.
Agreed. So? How does that make Mutaah acceptable today?

You know in Muslim societies people commit fornication or some other forms of Haram (like masturbation) or other great sins. Socially speaking, why do you think sticking to permanent marriage have not solved these problems? And what if, on the Last Day, we recognize that Mutaah was Halal and it could preserve thousands of Muslims (in history) from such sins but Muslims had wrongly banned it on themselves committing so many Harams instead?
 
Okay wait a minute. Are you seriously suggesting that permanent marriage cannot stop sexual evils in a society - hence Mutaah is the answer??? Are you suggesting that a Nikaah cannot solve these problems, but Mutaah can? How so? My point is that due to the existence of Nikaah - any need for Mutaah is obsolete, because all the 'benefits' you claim belong to Mutaah - belong to a Nikaah.
 
Why do a man and woman need to contract a temporary Mutaah - when what they are looking for can be achieved through Nikah?
 
 
1. Sexual/Social Evils in Muslim (or even nonmuslim) societies that still hold on to some remnants of marital sanctity are vastly less than that of other societies that do not.
 
2. Temporary 'on-off' relationships are not a solution to social evils.
 
3. Don't tell me that Mutaah is not a temporary 'on-off' r/ship - because its entire concept of existence is based on its 'temporary' nature. Had it not been so, we would be calling it Nikaah, and our discussion wouldnt be taking place in the first place.
 
 


Edited by Chrysalis - 06 January 2009 at 5:16am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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cherishlife
 
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bullet Posted: 07 January 2009 at 11:27am
Originally posted by abosait

Originally posted by Sign*Reader



OMG Who doesn't know these guys?



Why would I ask you if I knew?

And how do you know them?

Are you an offspring of that dynasty that empowers you to speak so firmly about their private life?


Originally posted by Sign*Reader


........The number of children that Ibn Saud fathered are unknown,......



No, I'm not an offspring, but I personally know the wife, the daughter and one of the two son's of Prince Faisal, who is a grandson to
Ibn Saud.

Unknown to whom?

Wouldnt the children demand their rights?


Originally posted by Sign*Reader


  • he had 37 sons by 16 wives.......... 

  • His number of wives is put at 22 though never more than three or four simultaneously........

  • King Saud had 53 sons and 56 daughters, number of wives AOA!


Please produce proof of those contradicting  statistics which you wish to spread on the net?

Or have you copied that from some book of fiction?




You can check for yourself  at :
 
http://www.katagogi.com/CreateTree/DrawTree.aspx?fid=697&l=EN


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myahya
 
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bullet Posted: 08 January 2009 at 1:49am

Are you seriously suggesting that permanent marriage cannot stop sexual evils in a society - hence Mutaah is the answer??? Are you suggesting that a Nikaah cannot solve these problems, but Mutaah can? How so? My point is that due to the existence of Nikaah - any need for Mutaah is obsolete, because all the 'benefits' you claim belong to Mutaah - belong to a Nikaah.

My assumption in discussion is that Mutah is Halal (religiously not evil) otherwise it doesn’t differ from fornication and there is no point in discussion. For a second assume that Mutahh is Halal. If it be, sexual evils (from religious point of view) would be disappeared (or dramatically decreased) If any fornication (or other Haram sexual activities or relationships) happened in a Muslim society was replaced by a Mutahh while such a replacement can be performed unconditionally. In practice, for example fornication can not be unconditionally and globally replaced by a permanent marriage (for anybody in any situation, any society and any time).

Edited by myahya - 08 January 2009 at 1:55am
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