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Friendship
 
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 16 November 2008 at 10:23am
Assalamu alaikum.

My problem is that I do not want to invent anything, or understand Islam outside its base.
I do not know how to express myself. You seemed earlier to understood that there is a difference between Hadith and Sunna. This was also the understanding of Hadith scholars beginning from an Indian scholar Imam Naisaburi (d. 405 AH).  I gave you the references, but now you are turning as if there is no difference between hadith and Sunna. Why not you read and get convinced. I am not denying the hadith but I want know the action! Did the holy Prophet actually perform it and when? A hadith is denied if it contradicts the Sunna. Professor Azami is an Indian. Don't you have his books in India?  How many books hav
e you read on Hadith literature and methodology?Agree with me not to invent anything and understand Islam according what was understood by the Sahabas.
Secondly the verse you quoted in chapter 3:159 was translated and explained not in the manner you understood. Jama'at khayr are the Ahl hal wal aqad and are not soothsayers or fortune tellers. Do you now about Munaajat? We are in constant Munaajat with our Lord through Zikr and Tadabbur. Please do not introduce philosophy into the Sunna!

Friendship.





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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 16 November 2008 at 6:27pm
Friendship,
 
How do you know the sunna of The Prophet?
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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seekshidayath
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 16 November 2008 at 10:15pm
 
Well , friendship, i did not read even a single book of the author {Azam}  you mentioned. Neither do  i know Naisaburi.
 
 For me its important that i follow both the actions and sayings of the prophet. If a hadith explains me only actions, i shall follow it, and if it has "sayings" only, even then i shall be accepting, since Allah swt says in the Qur'an, obey Allah and Obey Messenger {Wa'athiul laha wa athiur rasool}
 
 
Now speaking from your pont of view :
 
You did not answer my earlier question, show me atleast one incident, wherein we stopped from isteqarah.
 
By the way you said, - " A hadith is denied if it contradicts the Sunnah". Is it ? If i accept this sentence of yours, how is it that the hadith of isteqarah, contradicting  sunnah. None of the sunnahs, depict us that isteqarah was denied by them and thus contradicts.
 
By the way, i wish you to answer, sis Shasta aunt's question.  I  would like to also know, how you differentiate hadith and sunnah.
 
You must have heard this hadith many a times that, "The best people are my generation, then the next generation, then the next generation...." Here, is the proof you asked. He would not write down any hadith in his Saheeh until he had done ghusl, then prayed two rak’ahs and prayed istikhaarah, asking Allah to guide him with regard to writing down this hadith; then he would write it down. It took him sixteen years to write this book, which the ummah accepted and unanimously agreed that what is narrated in it is saheeh; and Allah has protected this ummah from agreeing upon misguidance.  What do you say now ?
 
Imaam al-Bukhari narrates in his Saheeh that Mutraf bin Abdullah Aboo  narrated to us that Abdur-Rahmaan ibn Abee al-Mawaal narrated to us from Muhammad ibn al-Munkadir from Jaabir (radhi allahu anhu)˜the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) used to teach us al-Istikharah (seeking of guidance) in all of our affairs, like he would teach us a Soorah of the Qurâan saying: { Note the words, used to teach us}
 
If any of you is concerned about an affair, then let him pray two rakahs other then the obligatory prayers after which he should supplicate: O Allah, I seek Your counsel by Your knowledge and I seek Your assistance by Your Power and I ask You from Your immense favor, for verily you are able while I am not, and verily You know and I do not, and You are the knower of the unseen. O Allah if You know this affair is to be good for me in relation to my religion, my life and end (or he said my present and my future), then decree and facilitate it for me and bless me with it. And if You know this affair to be detrimental (harmful) for me concerning my religion, my life and end (or he said my present and my future), then remove it from me and remove me from it and decree for me what is good wherever it be and make me satisfied with it.And he mentions his need
 al-Bukharee (eng. trans. Vol.2, no.263)
 
 
 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 17 November 2008 at 3:00pm
Assalamu alaikum.

Please understand me and read! 
The Sunna of the holy Prophet is that action reported by a Sahaba (irrespective of classification and categorising) juxtaposed with a Revelation (Command) describing an Ibadat. In other words the Sunna is that practical demonstration of the teaching of a hadith by the holy Prophet. There is no hadith from the Prophet in Ibadat especially the prayer without its practical demonstration. The precise timing of that Ibadat is also known. For example we knew that only 3 daily prayers consisting of 2 raka'at were performed in Makka and no Sahaba had ever reportd the suras recited. They reported that his legs used to swell because of the length of the Suras. They described his Ruku' and Sujada sometimes thinking that he has forgotten to raise his head. Therefore the Sunna is what the Sahabsa described to us and hardly described by him.That is why Allah described them as witnesses to the truth and that we should respect them and say nothing bad about them. The one who talks bad about them talks bad about the holy Prophet.
Friendship.   
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 17 November 2008 at 6:18pm

I am baffled by your responses Friendship. You have gone from denying that The Prophet prayed Istikhara to stating that anyone who prays to Allah for any reason is commiting shirk to stating that you follow the sunnah without the hadith without stating how you know what the sunnah is without the hadith.

Yes, the sunna of The prophet can be found in The Quran, but it is also found in the hadith. Without the hadith we would know only a part of the actions and manners of The Prophet. Without the textual sources of the hadith how could anyone determine what the sunnah is?



Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 17 November 2008 at 6:43pm
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Quote abosait Replybullet Posted: 18 November 2008 at 6:04am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.

..............from an Indian scholar Imam Naisaburi (d. 405 AH).  ............... Professor Azami is an Indian.................Jama'at khayr are the Ahl hal wal aqad ............. Munaajat? ..............Zikr and Tadabbur............ Please do not introduce philosophy into the Sunna!
Friendship.


Never heard of a person called Imam Naisaburi nor Professor Azami
 
By the way What is
  • Jama'at khayr ?
  • Ahl hal wal aqad
  • Munaajat
  • Zikr and Tadabbur

Kindly translate those words/phrases into English.






Edited by abosait - 18 November 2008 at 7:12am
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Quote abosait Replybullet Posted: 18 November 2008 at 7:26am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.

...................we knew that only 3 daily prayers consisting of 2 raka'at were performed in Makka................................ Friendship.   
 
Wa alaikum assalam wa Rahmatullah.
 
Who are these WE?
 
Please dont include me in uttering such statements because all I know from reliable Islamic sources is that we have been given 5 daily prayers. Even today the fardh salat is prayed 5 times a day  in all the mosques of Makkah.
 
The rka'ah are:
 
fajr=2
 
duhr=4
 
asr=4
 
magrib=3 and
 
ishaa'=4 with and additional 3 rak'a of witr.
 
When on a journey the Rule of 'qasr' is applied whereby all the three four rak'ah prayers are cut short to two raka'ah each and the witr to one raka'ah


Edited by abosait - 18 November 2008 at 7:31am
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 18 November 2008 at 1:52pm
Assalamu alaikum.

Brther Seekshidayath


Well , friendship, i did not read even a single book of the author {Azam}  you mentioned. Neither do  i know Naisaburi.

Response. Well you must read what the hadith scholars said about hadith literature. If you do not believe in that, then there is no need discussing any issue on hadith. Hadith literature is supposed to be discussed with only those with the knowledge. A hadith has more 65 branches of knowledge. We must have an idea of these branches before we are agree with one another. Thus why I advised you to buy the books on hadith literature.


 For me its important that i follow both the actions and sayings of the prophet. If a hadith explains me only actions, i shall follow it, and if it has "sayings" only, even then i shall be accepting, since Allah swt says in the Qur'an, obey Allah and Obey Messenger {Wa'athiul laha wa athiur rasool}

Answer: Still you do not understand the difference between hadith and sunna. Please read on your own. You cannot understand Islam by not reading the appropriate books.   
 
Now speaking from your pont of view :
 
You did not answer my earlier question, show me at least one incident, wherein we stopped from isteqarah.
 
Answer: I do not understand what you mean. I will answer you in one of your observations.
 
By the way you said, - " A hadith is denied if it contradicts the Sunnah". Is it ? If i accept this sentence of yours, how is it that the hadith of isteqarah, contradicting  sunnah. None of the sunnahs, depict us that isteqarah was denied by them and thus contradicts.

Answer: Please refer to your previous statement in which you outlined what one is supposed to derive from a hadith. Now, observe that:
1. Imam Shatibi traced the explanation of Istikhara to Muhammad ibn Arabi and his teacher. They were known Sufis. They misinterpreted or mis-spelt Istiraha and Istikhara. See from your sources the commentary on holy Qur'an, chapters 29:45;20:132. Salaf Salih (The Sahabas etc) understood it according to the Ahadith of the holy Prophet. He said  "Arihna biha ya Bilal. The Bilal would call the prayer to please the holy Apostle". He also said, "Wa ju'ilat qurrat ainii fi salat". I have made salat a comfort for my eyes" Abdullah bin Salam reported that the holy Prophet would always tell his household to pray when they are inconvenienced. The Sahabas did not understand and translate Salat Istiraha (to find rest) as Istikhara (to request what is good or best) 
1. One of your Indian scholars Sha Waliullah of Dahlawi said in his Book, 'Hujjatul Lahi Baligha' vol 2 P.19:- During the period of Jahiliyya the Arabs would perform divinations whenever they were faced with a situation. The holy Prophet forbade them from doing that. Instead he gave told them to do Istikharat. He explained it as the process by which one turns to Allah when faced with a situation like illness. He develops confidence in that.  Its significance and merit lies in one totally relying on Allah by disengaging himself from beastly state relying solely on Allah. When he attained this condition he becomes like the angles waiting for Allahs command. Now what do you understand when the term Jahiliyya is mentioned? What Shari'a was available in Makka?

 
By the way, i wish you to answer, sis Shasta aunt's question.  I  would like to also know, how you differentiate hadith and sunnah.

 Answer: Sunna is the practical demonstration using the limbs of the Command of Allah by the holy Propeht. It was always juxtaposed to a Revealed Command. For example there was no ahadith the way the prayer is to be called. The change of direction  was at the instant of the Revelation of the command. When the holy Prophet turned to face the ka'ba everybody turned. Understand that Sunna was what the Sahabas reported the holy Prophet doing. If you knew very well the lfie history of the holy Prophet, you will understand that there is no interposition of time between the Sunna and the Revelation. But there is interposition of time betwen hadith and Command that is not part of an Ibadat. For example when the command was given for the Muslims to defend themselves it took about a year before the believers fought the battle of badr.
   
You must have heard this hadith many a times that, "The best people are my generation, then the next generation, then the next generation...." Here, is the proof you asked. He would not write down any hadith in his Saheeh until he had done ghusl, then prayed two rak’ahs and prayed istikhaarah, asking Allah to guide him with regard to writing down this hadith; then he would write it down. It took him sixteen years to write this book, which the ummah accepted and unanimously agreed that what is narrated in it is saheeh; and Allah has protected this ummah from agreeing upon misguidance.  What do you say now ?

Answer: Understand you can only understand that hadith if you can justify and protct the Sahabas from doing anything not performed by the holy Prophet. The hadith is saying that they will never say or report on something not done by him. Therefore you must know thso 65 branches of the knowledge of hadith.  I never performed any Istikhara in my life and I do not see its justification and need. What Bukhari did was according to his own wish and not the sunna. Tell me what the holy Prophet did when Abubakar wanted him to leave Makka! Tell me the Istikhara the holy Prophet did when the Aws and Khazraj were competing between themselves in whose house he will stay. Tell me the Istikhara they did before leaving for any military expedition. Was his dream before the battle of badr an Istikhara?
 
Imaam al-Bukhari narrates in his Saheeh that Mutraf bin Abdullah Aboo  narrated to us that Abdur-Rahmaan ibn Abee al-Mawaal narrated to us from Muhammad ibn al-Munkadir from Jaabir (radhi allahu anhu)˜the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) used to teach us al-Istikharah (seeking of guidance) in all of our affairs, like he would teach us a Soorah of the Qurâan saying: { Note the words, used to teach us}
 
If any of you is concerned about an affair, then let him pray two rakahs other then the obligatory prayers after which he should supplicate: O Allah, I seek Your counsel by Your knowledge and I seek Your assistance by Your Power and I ask You from Your immense favor, for verily you are able while I am not, and verily You know and I do not, and You are the knower of the unseen. O Allah if You know this affair is to be good for me in relation to my religion, my life and end (or he said my present and my future), then decree and facilitate it for me and bless me with it. And if You know this affair to be detrimental (harmful) for me concerning my religion, my life and end (or he said my present and my future), then remove it from me and remove me from it and decree for me what is good wherever it be and make me satisfied with it.And he mentions his need
 al-Bukharee (eng. trans. Vol.2, no.263)
 
Answer: My sharh Sahih Bukhari did not mention that hadith. This hadith was narrated from Riyadu Salih, and some other Fiqh books. But as I said earlier, the holy Prophet, the Sahabas especially the four Khalifas were faced with dare circumstances, but none of them ever performed Istikhara. They just consulted the holy Qur'an and the Sunna to solve their problem.  
You have great problem in understanding the Sunna because you do not have the basic knowledge required to understand hadith. Now listen and learn:
1. There are two Mutraf bin Abdullah mentioned by historians. One died 87 A.H, and the other 220 A.H. Which one of them do you mean and why? Do you know where they died?
2. The name of Abdurrahman bin Mawali was given by historians but no one gave the year he died. Can you estimate the date of his death?
3. Muhammad Munkadir died 131 A.H Do you know in which town
4. The historians mentioned the names of 3 Jabir ibn Abdullah. Which one of the do you mean?
This knowledge known as Asma' Rijal is very important in justifying and understanding a hadith. If you do not know the 65 branches of the knowldge of hadith, you are not supposed to talk or discuss on hadith. You must then go to the school where hadith is taught and learn. I do not regard discussing with you as a waste of my time. At least you told the truth that you have never read the books i mentioned to you.
I will tell you about these Sahabas and then about the doubt of the hadith. My policy is to say that I do not understand a hadith. It could be a fabrication.
Friendship.
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