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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2008 at 5:41am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

 
They point out the Quran says cover your bosom and they point out their bosom is not on top of their head. - Is this remarks theirs or yours?
 
You cannot blame us for believing that Western women are loose. That is what is normally portrayed on TV. Same with those who are anti-Muslims just for watching these Zionists owned media.
 
Actually I do not believe that. Good always outweigh evil. There are more good Western people around than those loose ones.


Theirs actually...  its really beside the point.

The ayah you quoted is a very good one.  But, it addresses believing women, which I have come to interpret in the Quran meaning Muslimahs.  This ayah tells me that a Muslimah should cast about her garments that mark her as a Muslim so that she is not harassed.  Her virtue is known, so to speak.

Christian women are only told to cover their head when praying or prophesying. 

Originally posted by 1 Corinthians 11:2-16



2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. 13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.


This is why Orthodox women cover their heads while in Church.  This is why I own around a dozen headscarves.

However, it does not tell us to over our heads at any other time.


I am glad that you feel there are good western women.  The media is evil.  I barely watch any TV that isn't on the National Geographic Channel, History Channel, News or Discovery.  I just get tired of the violence and the sex.

What the Middle East doesn't see is the pushes to end the sexualization of the youth.   They don't see the abstinence programs and the push to teach children to wait for marriage. 

In the end, I believe in personal responsibility and choices.  If a man rapes a woman who is drunk and wearing a miniskirt.  He is ultimately at fault for his actions.  If a man cheats on his wife with his younger secretary, the blame falls on to each equally.  She can say no or quit her job.  He can behave himself or hire a male secretary if he's that weak willed.  The secretary cannot be blamed for the man's actions, only her own.

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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2008 at 10:45am
It is much better to keep your thoughts to yourself.
 
 
Is this what God says or are you making a personal opinion? And Also, if I say I find her attractive in my mind isn't that 'keeping my thoughts to myself?"
 
 
If thinking or seeing the woman in your inner eye will result in erroneous unhealthy dreams, then it is sinful.
 
 
What is an "unhealthy dream?" Is this conceptual or biological? I've never heard of an unhealthy dream before.
 
If I do not believe my sheikh or scholars or imams, who should I believe, a feel-low-so-far like you? The point is Allah's law is the best of law. If you can think of a better law than Allah's, then please present it to us here.
 
Negative. Follow Muhammad the prophet. not mere human beings.
 
Are you trying to negate Allah's law? Both are at fault, because both man and woman do not follow the guidelines given by the Creator of the Whole Universe.
 
 
How many times in your post will you say God, the Creator of the whole universe. We all know God is the Creator of the entire universe. I just find it funny you have to constantly establish that. So again, the man is at fault for looking and the woman's at fault for not covering herself Islamically. Got it!
 
It had been proven that woman who covers themselves modestly are less prone to molestations and rapes from men.
 
Can you prove this?
 
You cannot blame us for believing that Western women are loose.
 
Confused
 
"They don't see the abstinence programs and the push to teach children to wait for marriage."
 
 
Angela, in my opinion Nur_Ilahi is a follower of what she sees in media so therefore regardless whether the media shows abstinence programs or other preventative measures, people only want to satisfy their egos by believing in stereotypes.
 
 
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2008 at 11:47am
Originally posted by Angela

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

 
They point out the Quran says cover your bosom and they point out their bosom is not on top of their head. - Is this remarks theirs or yours?
 
You cannot blame us for believing that Western women are loose. That is what is normally portrayed on TV. Same with those who are anti-Muslims just for watching these Zionists owned media.
 
Actually I do not believe that. Good always outweigh evil. There are more good Western people around than those loose ones.


Theirs actually...  its really beside the point.

The ayah you quoted is a very good one.  But, it addresses believing women, which I have come to interpret in the Quran meaning Muslimahs.  This ayah tells me that a Muslimah should cast about her garments that mark her as a Muslim so that she is not harassed.  Her virtue is known, so to speak.

Christian women are only told to cover their head when praying or prophesying. 

Originally posted by 1 Corinthians 11:2-16



2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. 13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.


This is why Orthodox women cover their heads while in Church.  This is why I own around a dozen headscarves.

However, it does not tell us to over our heads at any other time.


I am glad that you feel there are good western women.  The media is evil.  I barely watch any TV that isn't on the National Geographic Channel, History Channel, News or Discovery.  I just get tired of the violence and the sex.

What the Middle East doesn't see is the pushes to end the sexualization of the youth.   They don't see the abstinence programs and the push to teach children to wait for marriage. 

In the end, I believe in personal responsibility and choices.  If a man rapes a woman who is drunk and wearing a miniskirt.  He is ultimately at fault for his actions.  If a man cheats on his wife with his younger secretary, the blame falls on to each equally.  She can say no or quit her job.  He can behave himself or hire a male secretary if he's that weak willed.  The secretary cannot be blamed for the man's actions, only her own.

 
 
Angela,
you said, "However, it does not tell us to cover our heads at any other time."
Are you saying that the Bible did not address or talk about how to dress in public for its followers?
Its intersting that some Christians I know follow very strict dress code (long skirts, covering more etc).
I believe, that just like the believe in one God is a universal belief, how to do this or that, how to be and dress in public or in front of a stranger must be same for those who follow the guidance from the One and only God.
I find this quote interesting and not strange at all:
 
 
Genesis 24:64 "Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel 65 and asked the servant, "Who is that man in the field coming to meet us?"
      "He is my master," the servant answered. So she took her veil and covered herself. "
 
As far as your examples, I think that a woman wearing short cloths and causing attraction toward her body in a sexual way is responsible for her part in any sin she causes to happen even just in mind. Of course the man lusting on her or engaging in an activity resulting it is to pay what he does.
 
Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Now that's according to your Bilble.
 
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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PattyaMainer
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2008 at 1:19pm
Hasan, this is part of your post above.....it is tooooo long to quote all of it.
 
                                       
"Angela you said, "However, it does not tell us to cover our heads at any other time."
Are you saying that the Bible did not address or talk about how to dress in public for its followers?
Its intersting that some Christians I know follow very strict dress code (long skirts, covering more etc).
I believe, that just like the believe in one God is a universal belief, how to do this or that, how to be and dress in public or in front of a stranger must be same for those who follow the guidance from the One and only God.
I find this quote interesting and not strange at all:
 
 
Genesis 24:64 "Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel 65 and asked the servant, "Who is that man in the field coming to meet us?"
      "He is my master," the servant answered. So she took her veil and covered herself. "
 
As far as your examples, I think that a woman wearing short cloths and causing attraction toward her body in a sexual way is responsible for her part in any sin she causes to happen even just in mind. Of course the man lusting on her or engaging in an activity resulting it is to pay what he does.
 
Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Now that's according to your Bilble.
 
Hasan
 
I think many references in the Bible are taken from that time period because that is how the cultures were back then.  But things do change and we change.  I am not saying at all that women should run around in short skirts, tight tops, etc., like a Hollywood Brittany Spears (ugh), but there are many forms of MODEST clothing for women.  There are pretty shirts, slacks, etc., which are NOT sexy or revealing.   I don't believe God created human beings so they could hide every dot of skin He created on them.  Human beings are beautiful.  And by that I do not mean sexy.  By nature, we are sexy......we are meant to be attractive to the opposite sex.  If we were not, the human race would disappear.
 
I do believe women should use care when dressing, so as not to look like a typical "painted lady."  I also believe men are every bit as responsible in using self-discipline when looking at a woman.  It's called RESPECT.  I live in the woods of Maine.  It would be impossible for me to go through my day in a long gown.  I wear comfortable slacks or jeans (not tight ones) and usually a sweatshirt or warm, flannel shirt. I can hike through the woods just fine in these clothes.  I wear dressy clothes to church or when I have to go into a city.  (I hate cities.)  So I think God gave us all a brain to use and decipher what He really means about modesty. 
 
If we were never meant to change or modernize anything since the beginning of time, we would not drive cars, watch TV at all, listen to a radio, talk on a cell phone, etc.  Medicine would offer no surgery for many ailments, and there would be NO antibiotics.  I believe common sense dictates that in all areas of life there comes change over the years.  Morals DO NOT CHANGE.  What I see as abysmally immoral are men who rape women, even women in burkas, and their government (comprised of men) find the women guilty of "causing the rape."  Oh no!  God must be horribly distressed over that sort of reasoning.  Rape is not about sex, it's all about control.  It is a SIN, there is NEVER JUSTIFICATION, and it is ILLEGAL in most countries. 
 
I agree the Bible says, "If anyone should lead a child into sin, it would be better he have a millstone hung around his neck and drowned in the sea."  Jesus said that, and He loved children very much.  He also said, "suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven."  We should be more childlike in our activities....more innocent as a child.
 
Oh, I also wonder why in Genesis mentioned above, Rebekah only covered herself when she learned it was Isaac.  She did not cover herself in front of her servant.....or was the servant also a woman?  Just curious.
 
God's Peace,
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2008 at 6:50pm

Although I believe in modest clothing I have a hard time accepting modesty means more safety.

Somali Rape Victim Stoned To Death Was 13
 
 "A 13-year-old girl who said she had been raped was stoned to death in Somalia after being accused of adultery by Islamic militants, a human rights group said." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/01/world/main4562850.shtml
 
I wonder if hijab or niqab would have prevented this. Like I said clothing is not just the sole factor of how others perceive you it is also the behavior the individual and those within the environment.
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2008 at 5:20am
Originally posted by Israfil

Although I believe in modest clothing I have a hard time accepting modesty means more safety.

Somali Rape Victim Stoned To Death Was 13
 
 "A 13-year-old girl who said she had been raped was stoned to death in Somalia after being accused of adultery by Islamic militants, a human rights group said." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/01/world/main4562850.shtml
 
I wonder if hijab or niqab would have prevented this. Like I said clothing is not just the sole factor of how others perceive you it is also the behavior the individual and those within the environment.
 
How remarkably evil and absurd.  All one would need do in countries who punish or kill the VICTIM is rape her and then they have assured their right to kill her.  They are nothing more than sociopathic murderers.  They get their "kicks" from inflicting pain and suffering on innocent people.  Religion my foot!  Religion has no place in this sort of activity!!  It really makes me furious, and I am quite confident it makes God even more furious!!!Angry


Edited by PattyaMainer - 14 November 2008 at 5:21am
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2008 at 7:17am

This is why Orthodox women cover their heads while in Church. This is why I own around a dozen headscarves.However, it does not tell us to over our heads at any other time.

Quran says - “O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition.” (Quran 7:26)

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31).

“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59)

I am glad that you feel there are good western women. The media is evil. I barely watch any TV that isn't on the National Geographic Channel, History Channel, News or Discovery. I just get tired of the violence and the sex.
Me too. Especially stories like Desperate Housewives. It really gives a bad impression of American women, which I believe are mostly not like that.

What the Middle East doesn't see is the pushes to end the sexualization of the youth.

Angela, you may have forgotten that I am not from the Middle East .
 
They don't see the abstinence programs and the push to teach children to wait for marriage..
It is good that they have these programmes. However man-made law is nothing like God's law. God's law has a stronger and eternal effect in human being. While man-made law can change anytime to suit their preference. As to the story of the boss and the secretary, if both of them have a love of God or fear of His punishment, they will not even dare to sin.
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2008 at 7:25am
Originally posted by Israfil

Although I believe in modest clothing I have a hard time accepting modesty means more safety.

Somali Rape Victim Stoned To Death Was 13
 
 "A 13-year-old girl who said she had been raped was stoned to death in Somalia after being accused of adultery by Islamic militants, a human rights group said." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/01/world/main4562850.shtml
 
I wonder if hijab or niqab would have prevented this. Like I said clothing is not just the sole factor of how others perceive you it is also the behavior the individual and those within the environment.
 
There are so many inconsistencies in these reports. She was accused by the militant Islamists with ties with Al=Qaeda (the terrorist group that was the baby of the Zionists Powers).
Not fair to judge her in the condition of her country.
She had been punished in this world. Her soul was then pure when meeting Allah. May Allah bless her with Jannah.
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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