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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 10:15am
In no way do I ever blame women for the violence committed upon women. We are talking about two different issues:
 
I have never agreed that violence is connected to dress. Rape and sexual assault is due to deviant minds combined with opportunity. I teach self-defense and there is no proven connection. The only correlation is that two ways women may be targets is if they wear very restrictive clothing or anything that restricts free walking, like high heels.
 
How women are viewed by themselves and others are a product of the society they live in. Having a more covered dress helps people, especially girls have a more psoitive self-esteem.  Is it  the sole factor, no. It is about having dignity and self-respect.
 
Israfil, Islam calls upon all people to dress modestly. Period, we may know some benefits and we may not know why. You appear to get  defensive when differences are pointed between men and women. When people say men are "like this" no oneis thinking 100% of men are like this or for women. But there are general trends.  if you look at magazines, either men or womens' most adds feature halk-naked women. Not men. That says alot.  Why are there so many strip clubs for men? Let's just be basic and realistic. Why is so much porn for men?
 
We can "guess" as to the reasons why we are asked to dress. Clearly women are asked to wear hijab and not draw attention to ourselves in public. Men are asked to lower their gaze. It is clear. Men are not required to cover their hair (or head). 
 
Do I "blame" women for their lustful gaze or lust in their hearts. No. But as a woman I should do what my Creator has told me to do. So I don't, and others don't do it to "help men" but for themselves.   
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 10:42am
"Israfil, Islam calls upon all people to dress modestly."
 
I agree. God in Islam also says all different ethnic groups are human and all are equal in his sight, but some Muslims still are racist. The fact of the matter is cultural in these times supercede religious values unfortunately. If this weren't true why do I see Muslims running liquor stores here in Los Angeles? How would I know? The big "Allah" picture frame behind the counter.
 
"In no way do I ever blame women for the violence committed upon women. We are talking about two different issues:"
 
 
Nobody here is saying you are personally blaming, but your statements and language are doing the blaming.
 
 
"You appear to get  defensive when differences are pointed between men and women."
 
 
Because I th believe from my experiences that we all are contributing members of this society and, unless I'm under some type of medication that makes me delusional have personally seen Muslim women behave opposite of how their faith instructs them how to behave, freewill anyone? I know people aren't saying men are 100% at fault but again language is the key. Men and women should be addressed equally when discussing these issues so as to not alienate one gender over the other. We must also remind ourselves that all people are human and do have eyes and physiological porcesses that are natural.
 
 
 "Having a more covered dress helps people, especially girls have a more psoitive self-esteem."
 
This is your opinion which I respect, but there is no proof of this. I do believe moderate dress is appropriate when conducting yourself in the world but I wouldn't say it is helpful because again, clothing is not the sole factor of perception.
 
"So I don't, and others don't do it to "help men" but for themselves."
 
Well you did say to help men in your older post I don't know if you know that.
 
 
 
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 10:57am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Thanks Patty,
that is very interesting. Tell us more about the ceremony, I heard its just like a wedding ceremony with ring and vows?? does she also wear white bridal dress, or that varys??
 
Hasan
 
Hello Hasan,
 
I have this video to offer.  I think it shows what transpires.  It is very touching to me as a Catholic.
 
 
 
God's Peace,
Patty
 
 
 
Hi Patty,
interesting video. The music and singing in the background adds and fills emotion to the ceremony. I say probably different 'denominations' within Catholicism may differ on how this process and ceremony takes place as well as what and how to dress, but for the same purpose.
It is also intersting to see different levels of heirarchy through diffrent outfits, and their posture toward each other. That is quite an alien idea for a Muslim and different than that in Islam where the color of one's covering does not determine one's rank or order over the other or level of their advancement in the faith, rather simply a matter of one's choice which Islamically should only represent modesty.
It is also interesting that the purpose and reason of becoming a nun is to purify and be away from sin and serve God. Of course that will depend of an individual (nun), I am sure some may achieve it, some still not. So in other words, being a nun does not gurantee that one will become sin free, as we do hear and know of many nuns involve in various sins as well as many priests who do leave family life to serve God.
Now as far as leaving the family and family life to be purified and be devoted to God, as it may leave one with less distractions?
I can understand the motive behind that, but is that what God really wants from us?
A fight is no fight without a fight, I am sure you will agree with me that we all, including nuns and preists fight with temptations and whispers of satan on every moment basis and end up still sinning, knowingly and without knowing. Other than the Bible quotes what there is as a logical base to say that only by leaving family life one can achieve that purity?
God wants us not to leave what is a norm of life, yet achieve our obligations to Him through struggle and fight of the self. And He has given us those capabilities and how to use them through His guidance, I believe.
Hasan
 


Edited by honeto - 12 November 2008 at 11:18am
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 12:59pm
Hayfa,

I agree and I didn't think you were the one blaming victims, that was more Nur.

I agree more clothing helps self-esteem.  However, I don't think necessarily that conforming to a particular ethnic groups style of dress makes one particularly pious.  The hijab in all its major forms originated in the peoples of the middle east.  I suspect that as far back as people lived in the desert because of the benefits of wearing headcoverings and veils in the desert.   However, millions more lived in a time where they did not have that exact style.

Modest dress is possible without wearing niqab, hijab or jilbab.  Modest loose fitting T-shirts, Jeans and long skirts, modest ladies suits and blouses.  I just don't see why one must dress like an Arab Muslimah to be considered modest and chaste. 

I hate how our young girls are bombarded with images in the media that make them think that skinny and scantily clad is how a woman should be.  There is the concept among "born" Muslims that all Christian women are somehow loose.....heck, all western women no matter what religion.  I have several Muslimah friends who do not wear hijab.  They pray 5 times a day and are very proud of their faith.  They point out the Quran says cover your bosom and they point out their bosom is not on top of their head.


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PattyaMainer
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Thanks Patty,
that is very interesting. Tell us more about the ceremony, I heard its just like a wedding ceremony with ring and vows?? does she also wear white bridal dress, or that varys??
 
Hasan
 
Hello Hasan,
 
I have this video to offer.  I think it shows what transpires.  It is very touching to me as a Catholic.
 
 
 
God's Peace,
Patty
 
 
 
Hi Patty,
interesting video. The music and singing in the background adds and fills emotion to the ceremony. I say probably different 'denominations' within Catholicism may differ on how this process and ceremony takes place as well as what and how to dress, but for the same purpose.
It is also intersting to see different levels of heirarchy through diffrent outfits, and their posture toward each other. That is quite an alien idea for a Muslim and different than that in Islam where the color of one's covering does not determine one's rank or order over the other or level of their advancement in the faith, rather simply a matter of one's choice which Islamically should only represent modesty.
It is also interesting that the purpose and reason of becoming a nun is to purify and be away from sin and serve God. Of course that will depend of an individual (nun), I am sure some may achieve it, some still not. So in other words, being a nun does not gurantee that one will become sin free, as we do hear and know of many nuns involve in various sins as well as many priests who do leave family life to serve God.
Now as far as leaving the family and family life to be purified and be devoted to God, as it may leave one with less distractions?
I can understand the motive behind that, but is that what God really wants from us?
A fight is no fight without a fight, I am sure you will agree with me that we all, including nuns and preists fight with temptations and whispers of satan on every moment basis and end up still sinning, knowingly and without knowing. Other than the Bible quotes what there is as a logical base to say that only by leaving family life one can achieve that purity?
God wants us not to leave what is a norm of life, yet achieve our obligations to Him through struggle and fight of the self. And He has given us those capabilities and how to use them through His guidance, I believe.
Hasan
 
 
Hello Hasan,
 
I am glad you enjoyed the video.  I don't know if I can explain this to you properly or not, but I will try.  Just a little information here....there are NO different "denominations" within the Catholic Church.  There is only one Catholic Church.  There are different "orders" of nuns and priests, but that is a completely different matter.  Protestants have many, many denominations, but not Catholic.
 
A nun is not necessarily considered any more pure than a devout Catholic. They are not running away from the world....they are running toward God. They are giving their lives to serve Him in whatever way he calls them.  Many nuns are professionals.  One here in Maine where I live started a hospital in Bangor, Maine.  She runs this hospital.  Some are nurses, artists, musicians, run bakeries and give the money to the poor.   I could go on and on, but then there are some who go to convents and live their lives in meditation and prayer.  God calls different people to spread his word of love and salvation in a wide variety of ways. 
 
There have been very sad times in the last few years caused, of course, by Satan, the Evil One.  Some priests were evil and NOT called by God.  They committed very evil and illegal acts against children and others in the Church.  I am sure God will certainly judge them according to their deeds when they reach the final judgement!  As a devout Catholic I can assure you they are very much frowned upon by the Church, by all devoted Catholics.  Many steps have been taken throughout America to see that these men (pedophiles) NEVER become priests.  No priest or adult working for the church is permitted to be alone with a child.  No adult can pick up and hold a child over the age of five....no touching, hugging, kissing, nothing.  If the parents are present, the priest may bless the child and shake their hand.  It is really a terribly shame these sinful priests created such scandal!!  I have known priests all my life, and they have been wonderful, selfless, devoted, men of God.  They give their entire life to God, the Church, and the people.  Many have died a martyr's death in their service of God.  I felt I had to get that in, because so many non-Catholics hate the Church and will stoop to anything to downgrade it, or cause more resentment and hatred.  These are people who honestly know very little about Catholicism. 
 
Nuns and priests are called by God into His service.  They do not just decide one day to become a nun or a priest.  They go through great study to see if this is really God telling them to become a sister or priest.  Then there are many years of seminary study.....priests average 12 years of college, theology, etc., before they are ordained.  They have many years to determine if this is God's will for their lives.  Nothing abnormal about living a life of chastity or abstinence.  What is normal for one person may be completely abnormal for another.  Who decides what is normal?  Not all people marry, they are not meant to.  Nuns and priests devote nearly all their time to helping others.  If they were married, they would not have nearly as much time during a day to do this, because their loyalties and obligations would be divided.  But Catholics do not believe priests and nuns are more pure than any other person on earth who listens to their conscience, loves God with all their being, and strives to please him, while avoiding the many temptations to sin.  And we do fail because we are human.  Everyone sins, everyone!  The wonderful thing about God is that if we ask for forgiveness....He ALWAYS forgives us and welcomes us with open arms. :)  We, as Catholics, have many prayers, but this is one we say often to help avoid sin, and to ask God's forgiveness when we fail:
 
ACT OF CONTRITION
 
Oh My God, I am heartily sorry
for having offended you, and I
detest all my sins because of
your just punishments, but most
of all because they offend You,
My God, who are all-good and
deserving of all my love.  I
firmly resolve with the help of
Your grace to sin no more,
and to AVOID THE NEAR OCCASION
OF SIN. 
 
I hope I have explained a little more clearly.  I am not always so good with words.
God's Peace,
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by Angela

Hayfa,

I agree and I didn't think you were the one blaming victims, that was more Nur.

I agree more clothing helps self-esteem.  However, I don't think necessarily that conforming to a particular ethnic groups style of dress makes one particularly pious.  The hijab in all its major forms originated in the peoples of the middle east.  I suspect that as far back as people lived in the desert because of the benefits of wearing headcoverings and veils in the desert.   However, millions more lived in a time where they did not have that exact style.

Modest dress is possible without wearing niqab, hijab or jilbab.  Modest loose fitting T-shirts, Jeans and long skirts, modest ladies suits and blouses.  I just don't see why one must dress like an Arab Muslimah to be considered modest and chaste. 

I hate how our young girls are bombarded with images in the media that make them think that skinny and scantily clad is how a woman should be.  There is the concept among "born" Muslims that all Christian women are somehow loose.....heck, all western women no matter what religion.  I have several Muslimah friends who do not wear hijab.  They pray 5 times a day and are very proud of their faith.  They point out the Quran says cover your bosom and they point out their bosom is not on top of their head.


 
Hi Angela,
I agree with you somewhat in particular on dressing like an Arab issue.  But think that there is more than just covering the bosoms. The following verse is very clear. Its unfortunate, that many Muslim women, including in my own family think that just dressing modest (accroding to their own standards) is all they are asked to do and the outer covering, which is know by saveral different terms around the world is not needed and represent extreme case.
33:59 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 
 
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2008 at 4:36am
I didn't know that, so I guess if I do a "double take" it is bad right?
 
Right!
 
if I see a beautiful woman walk past me I'm not allowed to find her attractive or think about her attractive she is?
 
It is much better to keep your thoughts to yourself.
 
What if my so-called "day dreams" are composed of the thought me wanting to find out if she is married or find out if she wants to marry?
 
If thinking or seeing the woman in your inner eye will result in erroneous unhealthy dreams, then it is sinful.
 
Again, you Nur_Ilahi have been conditioned by your Shiekh, Scholars, or Imam into believing by a woman covering herself completely will she then control seduction.
 
If I do not believe my sheikh or scholars or imams, who should I believe, a feel-low-so-far like you? The point is Allah's law is the best of law. If you can think of a better law than Allah's, then please present it to us here.
 
This is untrue. This also again validates my point that if she doesn't then if a man looks at her the wrong way its the woman's fault because she didnt cover herself correctly.
 
Are you trying to negate Allah's law? Both are at fault, because both man and woman do not follow the guidelines given by the Creator of the Whole Universe.
 
This goes along the lines of the ultra-conservative attitude of "women should be seen, but not heard" and in this case, "should not be looked at."
 
The only part of our bodies that can be looked at is just the pair of hands and the face. Other than that, it is exclusively mine and my immediate family. Even though we are covered from head to toe, does it lessen our ability to be a wife, to be a mother, or even to be a professional in the working world? No. Not at all.
 
In this modern world of too much freedom, I am thankful to Allah for this command. It had been proven that woman who covers themselves modestly are less prone to molestations and rapes from men.
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2008 at 4:52am
The hijab in all its major forms originated in the peoples of the middle east.
  
Right! Where Mary and Jesus were born. Where some stories of women in the Bible who covers themselves originate from.
 
Modest dressing in Islam, could be just any garment that covers the hair, the bosom, the shape of the body and should be opaque. So if you want to dress wearing a Pakistani shalwar kameez, the baju kurong of the Malaysians, the Ao Dai of the Vietnamese, the sari of India, the cheongsams of the Chinese or the kimono of the Japanese, as long as it fulfil the condition of the above, all are acceptable.

I hate how our young girls are bombarded with images in the media that make them think that skinny and scantily clad is how a woman should be.
 
Yes. That is why these kind of idea is a no sell in Islamic countries, because these are not what is taught by Allah and His Rasul.
 
They point out the Quran says cover your bosom and they point out their bosom is not on top of their head. - Is this remarks theirs or yours?
 
You cannot blame us for believing that Western women are loose. That is what is normally portrayed on TV. Same with those who are anti-Muslims just for watching these Zionists owned media.
 
Actually I do not believe that. Good always outweigh evil. There are more good Western people around than those loose ones.
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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