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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2008 at 1:00am
Originally posted by Israfil

Self-Discipline is a developmental virtue that men ought to have. Saying hijab helps men to have self-discipline just allocates blame to women if a man falls into temptation because a woman is not Islamically covered.
 


I have to completely agree with this statement. 

Every sin belongs to the individual, not anyone else.  If I wear capris and a t-shirt to go for a walk, I am not doing it to attract the opposite sex.  I'm doing it because its stiffling hot and I don't want to over heat.  But, even so, what a man thinks when he looks at any woman is his own fault, not hers.

I see so many Arab men dressed in find clothing with their beards trimmed and smelling of strong colognes?  Did you know the human sense of smell is our most powerful sense?

If anything, perfume should be forbidden if you are going into attractants.  Pheromones are far more powerful to the natural man than sight, yet there is no prohibition against heady perfumes in Islam. 

Its all rather ridiculous.  It comes down to women will get blamed for all the sins of man no matter how virtuous she is in her heart.  Eve/Hawa was redeemed in Islam.  She was used in Christianity and Judaism to prove how women are all temptresses and seductresses. 

For 600AD, Muhammed (pbuh) freed women from the slavery they lived in.  Yet, modern Muslims continue to place them as the reason for sin.

It is not the Western woman who is at fault for the lusts of men.  If anything she is a victim of it and no headscarf will free her from that condition. 

I'm not saying the headscarf is in anyway a bad thing.  I wish it was more acceptible for all Abrahamic women to wear it.  I'm just saying that the headscarf does not mark a womans Chastity.  For a Muslimah, it marks her faith in her Creator, to obey him.  However, she can still be a nasty, vile, hurtful woman under that scarf. 

If the hijab were the savior that some think it is, then there would never be a woman flogged or stoned in the places where its required.  Yet there are women regularly punished for fornication, adultery and lewdness in Middle Eastern Countries.  And there are brothels and clubs filled with abducted women all over the Middle East serving men who regularly do not see a woman outside of the Niqab or Hijab.

To focus on a piece of cloth instead of the moral issue is what causes these failures.  A man should be taught to respect all women and to see them for their spiritual value no matter what they are wearing.  A woman should be taught to respect her body and guard it no matter what the social norms are an what clothing is acceptable.  Its not about "hijab" is about self-respect.
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Nur_Ilahi
 
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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2008 at 7:32am
Originally posted by Israfil

Ok here is where I have to come in as a male.
 
Women are just as susceptible to seduction as men are. There are Muslim women who look at half-naked men who are muscular and swoon amongst themselves, but we have to admit in conservative Muslim societies the emphasis is more on the women than men this is FACT.
 

"But hijab helps men to be self-disciplined. Its like people should surround themselves with people who share the same values and a positive environment."

 
So you are telling me I need a woman to be in head to toe covering just to be self-discipline? Self-Discipline is a developmental virtue that men ought to have. Saying hijab helps men to have self-discipline just allocates blame to women if a man falls into temptation because a woman is not Islamically covered.
 
 
 
 
 

Israfil, do you know that the first look is pardonable, but the second is sin?

What does that mean? It means that when a man or a woman sees the opposite sex physically, it is pardonable, but when it reaches the heart (the inner sight) - that will lead to day dreams which are unhealthy, then it is sinful.

I have no doubt that there are Muslim women who acted like that, but these women definitely has little knowledge of halal and harams or what I should call ignorant Muslims or non-practicing Muslims whose iman is not strong. A true Muslimah, who covers herself, will also cover her eyes or any of her senses from looking/hearing/touching that which is haram.

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Nur_Ilahi
 
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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2008 at 7:37am

Every sin belongs to the individual, not anyone else. If I wear capris and a t-shirt to go for a walk, I am not doing it to attract the opposite sex. I'm doing it because its stiffling hot and I don't want to over heat. But, even so, what a man thinks when he looks at any woman is his own fault, not hers.

Yes Angela, you can wear whatever you like, because your religion does not have a proper dressing code. But for Muslim, we have and is it wrong for us to follow God’s Law, God who created the furthest of the planets and the tiniest of the veins, God who knows what is good for us and what is bad.

I see so many Arab men dressed in find clothing with their beards trimmed and smelling of strong colognes? Did you know the human sense of smell is our most powerful sense?

Wearing a perfume for Muslim men is not haram. For women, they can only wear perfumes in the vicinity of their own homes. If a woman goes out wearing perfume and a stranger happens to smell it, this is also haram as it may arouse the sexual desire in men.

Its all rather ridiculous. It comes down to women will get blamed for all the sins of man no matter how virtuous she is in her heart.

What is ridiculous? If men and women were to follow the law of the Creator, no one will be blamed. The reason why women like to advertise their assets is because, basically, we are vain. God knows vanity is not healthy spiritually, hence to subdue vanity, He commanded that women wear modestly.

Eve/Hawa was redeemed in Islam. She was used in Christianity and Judaism to prove how women are all temptresses and seductresses.

Why should we blame Eve/Hawa? Islam never blame Eve-Hawa for the sins of her husband. It is only Christianity and Judaism who are cruel to her. 

Modern Muslims continue to place them as the reason for sin? - You are implying that I am blaming myself for sin? - That is so funny. Most western women should blame themselves for being sex slaves in this modern world.

It is not the Western woman who is at fault for the lusts of men. If anything she is a victim of it and no headscarf will free her from that condition.

I had seen in You tube, these two guys from behind stealthily pulling a tank top of a woman. They did that to many women. For them it was fun. Who is to blame in this case? This would never happen if she was dressed like a Muslimah.

I'm just saying that the headscarf does not mark a womans Chastity. For a Muslimah, it marks her faith in her Creator, to obey him. However, she can still be a nasty, vile, hurtful woman under that scarf.

You maybe right. We are all not perfect. Only Allah The Creator is. And He is Most Gracious, Most Merciful. We try our best to follow His commandments to the best of our ability.

If the hijab were the savior that some think it is, then there would never be a woman flogged or stoned in the places where its required. Yet there are women regularly punished for fornication, adultery and lewdness in Middle Eastern Countries. And there are brothels and clubs filled with abducted women all over the Middle East serving men who regularly do not see a woman outside of the Niqab or Hijab.

This is a general accusation that needs some proof. Perhaps you will be kind enough to give links to prove your point.

To focus on a piece of cloth instead of the moral issue is what causes these failures. A man should be taught to respect all women and to see them for their spiritual value no matter what they are wearing. A woman should be taught to respect her body and guard it no matter what the social norms are an what clothing is acceptable. Its not about "hijab" is about self-respect.

This is exactly the reason behind the law on hijab. A woman who covers herself modestly is not only protecting herself, but also her family and society in general. Because the man who is looking at her could be someone’s husband, brother, son, father, uncle or grandfather. She, in obeying the law of Allah Our Creator, is not only guarding herself, but also guarding her family and her society.

This applies to men too. In lowering their gaze when meeting women who are not their mahram, a man is protecting himself, his family because that woman could be someone’s wife, sister, daughter, mother, aunt or grandmother.

Allahul Aleem! God is Most Knowing.

Salam.

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2008 at 7:09pm

Israfil, do you know that the first look is pardonable, but the second is sin?

I didn't know that, so I guess if I do a "double take" it is bad right?
 
It means that when a man or a woman sees the opposite sex physically, it is pardonable, but when it reaches the heart (the inner sight) - that will lead to day dreams which are unhealthy, then it is sinful.
 
 
So if I see a beautiful woman walk past me I'm not allowed to find her attractive or think about her attractive she is? What if my so-called "day dreams" are composed of the thought me wanting to find out if she is married or find out if she wants to marry?
 
A true Muslimah, who covers herself, will also cover her eyes or any of her senses from looking/hearing/touching that which is haram.
 
 
Again, you Nur_Ilahi have been conditioned by your Shiekh, Scholars, or Imam into believing by a woman covering herself completely will she then control seduction. This is untrue. This also again validates my point that if she doesn't then if a man looks at her the wrong way its the woman's fault because she didnt cover herself correctly. This goes along the lines of the ultra-conservative attitude of "women should be seen, but not heard" and in this case, "should not be looked at."
 
 
 
A woman who covers herself modestly is not only protecting herself, but also her family and society in general.
 
 
Can a woman still be raped even if she is "moderately" covered?
 
 
 

This applies to men too. In lowering their gaze when meeting women who are not their mahram, a man is protecting himself, his family because that woman could be someone’s wife, sister, daughter, mother, aunt or grandmother.

HMMM nothing about "modest" dress here. Hmmm. So I guess lowering one's gaze is sufficient? According to the word of God it is but what about modern times? What about our jobs, super markets, and neighborhoods where it is out there? How do I lower my gaze if I need to deal with a woman in un-islamic dress? Again the empahsis in your statements is more on the woman than the man.


Edited by Israfil - 11 November 2008 at 7:13pm
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2008 at 8:04pm
I once read a piece about cultures wherw hibab is the norm, and that it benefits all women. Not just themselves, but their sisters. Let's face it, men are visual. Should they have discipline.. yes, is controlling ourselves easy all the time, no.
 
When women where hijab it helps all women in that it:
1. helps men to not "compare" their wife or wives to other women. Everything can seem "better" and "greener" on the other side.
2. it helps young girls all around to not feel that they are the sum total of their body parts. Sadly, all over the world, women, more than men, are defined and valued by their looks.  Of course, I grew up in the west. And by no means did my parents tell me my worth was in my looks. But it defines your friends and your social relationships-sadly in teenage years and puberty. How can girls NOT be affected? And their self-esteem goes down.  Too many girls and women grow up hating themselves based upon how they look.
 
Valuing looks is not a western phenomenon. It happens all over. This is what women have to face. Some times with horrific results.
 
As Nur pointed out, if people really, in their hearts attempt to be good Muslims, both men and women, then there are fewer issues.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2008 at 9:26pm
"Too many girls and women grow up hating themselves based upon how they look."
 
 
Blame society, not men. Both men and women contribute to this.
 
 
"Let's face it, men are visual."
 
 
So are women. Physical attraction is a biological phenomena so don't tell me women don't have the same processes (meaning how one formulates physical attraction in their mind) that men do. Men just show this behavior differently. Again, what is the standard for men?
 
Again, although your propositions are good, they are more geared towards women than men, therefore I find it a consequential elemental of how conditioned men and women are in religion. Dress is not a state of just what you wear but how you behave. An adulterer can wear a 3-piece suit. A rapist could wear a nice tuxedo. Too much is focused on dress alone and NOT behavior.
 
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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 7:02am

Wearing a perfume for Muslim men is not haram. For women, they can only wear perfumes in the vicinity of their own homes. If a woman goes out wearing perfume and a stranger happens to smell it, this is also haram as it may arouse the sexual desire in men.

So, its okay for Men to go out with colonge that would arouse a woman but not vice versa???

What is ridiculous? If men and women were to follow the law of the Creator, no one will be blamed. The reason why women like to advertise their assets is because, basically, we are vain. God knows vanity is not healthy spiritually, hence to subdue vanity, He commanded that women wear modestly.

I know some Very vain men.  Have you ever heard of men liking to "sew their oats"?  There is a belief that men (SORRY ISRAFIL) will basically sleep with anyone to spread it around.


I had seen in You tube, these two guys from behind stealthily pulling a tank top of a woman. They did that to many women. For them it was fun. Who is to blame in this case? This would never happen if she was dressed like a Muslimah.

This would have never happened if those boys did not get into a car, go out looking for a woman to embarrass.  I am very tired of people not accepting responsibility for their actions and placing the blame elsewhere. 


This is a general accusation that needs some proof. Perhaps you will be kind enough to give links to prove your point.

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80733

Perhaps this is a bad example because the young woman was raped, but obviously the men felt that she was at fault for her own rape.  There was an incident in Saudi Arabia in the early 1990s where two girls dress in Niqab (and nothing else) drove around and lured men into a van.  They used their veils to disguise their identity so they could have anonymous sex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha%27il_bint_Fahd_al_Saud

You can go and look up 100s of others. Young women in Iran (one place where hijab is required by law and enforced) being hanged and stoned for fornication and adultery.

In the end, hijab does not make the virtue.  You might think I'm anti-hijab and I'm not.  I am Mormon.  We are very strict about chastity too.  You can be excommunicated for adultry and prevented from major sacrements for having sex outside of marriage.  I know thousands of young girls who are wed in the temple every year who are virgins and do not where hijab.  I know there are millions of mormon women like me, sealed to their husbands in the temple, living chaste and pure lives without hijab.  Our Temple garments mark the boundaries of our clothing.  Nothing can show cleavage, it must come below our knew and we cannot have uncovered shoulders.  So you are wrong, I do have a very strict dress code.  My garments are possibly even more sacred when you compare apples to oranges.  They are a testament to my faith, a protection from God, a reminder of my vows and a symbol of the Prophets of the past and God's promise to them. 

Look at the Sudan, many of the women, Muslimahs in hijab report that soldiers, militias and militants alike rape them when they raid villages.  They are butchered and cut...  hijab is not the answer, it is only a symbol.  The answer is to focus on the insides of people first.
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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2008 at 7:04am
Originally posted by Hayfa

 
As Nur pointed out, if people really, in their hearts attempt to be good Muslims, both men and women, then there are fewer issues.


The same could be said about Christians, Jews, Buddhists.  If we all tried to be better, the world would be better.  One should not blame victims, however.
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