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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 22 September 2008 at 8:19pm
Usually when you say you don't want to sound rude you are extremely so. Why be coy?
 
Until the actual existence of "thought police" is proven, I will not "revamp" my own thoughts. They are mine to do with as I will.  Whoa, I'm thinking something right now....


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 22 September 2008 at 8:20pm
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2008 at 9:56am
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Saladin
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Quote Saladin Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2008 at 8:24am
The essence of disbelief depends on the essence of belief. Disbelief comes as a result of weak faith to start with. A person indoctrinated with a certain belief from childhood, still has intellect to determine the correctness of that belief. If that person continues to hold the belief for any reason despite being unconvinced or partly believing is more likely to disbelieve when given the circumstances. The true believer is the one who verifies his/her belief without bias and accepts it out of conviction. Such a person is highly unlikely to disbelieve, given any circumstances.
Calamities are great testers of faith. Facing a calamity, out of a people of the same belief, for some faith is strenghtened while some lose faith. The former had the answers through his belief while the latter did not.
In the end belief or disbelief is as a result of using one's free will and intellect.
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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Quote Saladin Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2008 at 8:41am
For example when Ibn  Warraq (mind you this is a pseudonymn to protect his real name) heard about the Rusdhie affair his belief in Islam wanned when he viewed thousands of Muslims calling for Salman Rushdie's death. Mind you this is an individual who knew the whole Qur'an at an young age and attended a Madrasa.
 
There are quite a few evangelists who have more knowledge of Islam than most muslims do. Doesnt make them believers. Knowledge becomes Wisdom only when absorbed and used positively.
Ibn Warraq chose to understand Islam from muslims who were calling for Rushdie's death instead of reasoning from his knowledge of the Quran and knowledge gained at the madrasa. So much for his intellect.
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2008 at 9:38am
 
 Two good posts by Saladin above. Allah gives chance to every one to understand things. The truth is revealed to every one in packets at different times. It all depends what one will do with that truth.
 
 If a person does not care for the truth then no more truth is given to him. Jesus (Isa a.s. ) said "To any who has, more will be given..." ,,,  "For any one who knocks, the door will be opened"
 
 The Quran also teaches the same thing. It says " La in Shakartum. La azeedanakum" meaning, "If you are thankful then bounty will be increased for you"
 
 If a person is in the habit of denying the truth then his faculties become damaged and sometime to such an extent that he almost acts like a wild dog. In order to gain knowledge ( a pre-requisite for belief), one has to be gentle soul, thinking, contemplating, evaluating soul, self accusing soul (nafs e Lawwamah).


Edited by minuteman - 01 October 2008 at 9:40am
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Quote Gulliver Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2008 at 10:27am
"Calamities are great testers of faith..........   "
 
"Knowledge becomes Wisdom only when absorbed and used positively."
 
Indeedy. I think maybe we gotta be whacked over the head with a big hammer called Calamity (Jane ?) lol, to beat that knowledge in well enuff to become 'wisdom'.
 
I like what you are doing here Minute :-) Quoting Jesus(Isa) and the Qu'ran to give differing perspectives on the same message. Now that is a very 'positive' thing to do :-)
 
God bless
 
 
Do you think they'll ever invent a 'Satnav' that will get us to heaven ?  
 
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 02 October 2008 at 10:10am
Originally posted by Saladin

The essence of disbelief depends on the essence of belief. Disbelief comes as a result of weak faith to start with. A person indoctrinated with a certain belief from childhood, still has intellect to determine the correctness of that belief. If that person continues to hold the belief for any reason despite being unconvinced or partly believing is more likely to disbelieve when given the circumstances. The true believer is the one who verifies his/her belief without bias and accepts it out of conviction. Such a person is highly unlikely to disbelieve, given any circumstances.
Calamities are great testers of faith. Facing a calamity, out of a people of the same belief, for some faith is strenghtened while some lose faith. The former had the answers through his belief while the latter did not.
In the end belief or disbelief is as a result of using one's free will and intellect.
 
Well, I'm inclined to agree with you Saladin (on the highlited bold above) conditionally which is the result of my skepticism of calling disbelief in something 'weak.' Perhaps your perception of of weakness may differ from the indivudal whose faith in a religion is wanning. For instance, what if this individual who was in a particular faith decided that he/she did not believe in the tenents anymore because they just stopped believing it anymore? Or what about the one who goes through a series of negative emotional experiences in that particular faith (e.g. living in a Muslim community and experiencing detrimental encounters)? Or what about the one who is convinced through contemplation that this faith (insert religion here) is, after all, not the right one for them?
 
I disagree with you here:
 
"A person indoctrinated with a certain belief from childhood, still has intellect to determine the correctness of that belief."
 
Indoctrination (I assume you mean religion) can only come about if the parents are actively religious. But I have to ask you what is correctness? Growing up I wasn't knowledgable of other faiths until I saw the movie 'X' by Spike Lee which is the movie on Malcolm X (and posthumously given the title of shaheed after his death). After seeing that movie I began examining various religions (mind you I was 8 years-old). As far as me 'knowing' I'm in the right faith that goes insofar as my belief in the wholehearted belief in that faith. Obviously now it has change. But you should explain what you mean by correctness.
 
"The true believer is the one who verifies his/her belief without bias and accepts it out of conviction. Such a person is highly unlikely to disbelieve, given any circumstances."
 
I agree. I would also add ultimately if it is religion and promotes a metaphysical being such as God then ultimately the sole basis of that faith is, well, faith.
 
 
"Calamities are great testers of faith. Facing a calamity, out of a people of the same belief, for some faith is strenghtened while some lose faith. The former had the answers through his belief while the latter did not.
In the end belief or disbelief is as a result of using one's free will and intellect."
 
I disagree with the freewill part and, as far as calamities are concerned, I don't think they are great testers of the belief in the religion itself, but I believe calamities are great testers in testing whether or not God exists, and if God exists whether God is actively existing in the physical plane. But as far as the entire religion I am inclined to disagree. One may disagree with the spirituality of let's say Islam but may agree in giving to the poor, but as far as what is given to the poor is an arguable matter.
 
 
 
 
 
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 02 October 2008 at 10:15am
There are quite a few evangelists who have more knowledge of Islam than most muslims do. Doesnt make them believers. Knowledge becomes Wisdom only when absorbed and used positively.
Ibn Warraq chose to understand Islam from muslims who were calling for Rushdie's death instead of reasoning from his knowledge of the Quran and knowledge gained at the madrasa. So much for his intellect.
 
 
I think you use knowledge and wisdom interchangably. Knowledge is not wisdom nor it cannot be wisdom. One may know algebra like, knowing square roots and such but that doesn't mean you are wise. As far as your later post, Rusdie didn't CHOOSE to know Islam through extremist. He was a young child and put there (know the difference from choice and compulsion). He knew the entire Qur'an and was able to recite it. Rusdie wasn't even on the scene when he was growing up learning Qur'an. He knew about  Rushdie only sometime later.
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