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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Topic: The essence of disbelief
    Posted: 18 September 2008 at 11:27am
Contrary to what scholars say about "disbelief" (Kufr), I've come to the personal conclusion that disbelief is socially determined. with the right conditions and the wrong (negative) experiences this can turn someone who once believes something whoheartedly to being an opponet of that former belief. After reading the books by Ibn Waraaq (author of Why I am not Muslim) and others who are borderline I've found what they all have in common are the social influences in their respective upbringings. Being brought up in predominantly Muslim societies and them encountering some of the injustices in their country has conditioned them to question their faith in their adult lives. This gets to the boiling point where thy eventually forsake their faith and act against it.
 
Some have had such bad experiences to where they debelieve in the religion and God altogether. It's funny I remember talking with an intern at my clinic i work at and asked him "Why he wanted to become a physician" his response was "because my parents wanted me to." I found a similar behavior in other monotheistic religions. Kids don't have a choice to know truth nor experience truth from falsity they grow up believing because it is forced and if they forsake it they are cast out. So, from my readings on these authors what this boils down to is for one to forsake a religion is to commit cultural treason, versus one who is culturally patriotic. It has less become about rejecting God than rejecting a cultural tradition.
 
I know Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are not practiced today primarily for spiritual reasons (generally speaking) but because the aprents influenced it upon their children. How do I know? I'm a by-product of that. I grew up in the church, went to church, and believed what everyone else did until I started thinking for myself and examining different faiths. Although my experiences weren't totally negative I know that with the right conditions I could either continue believing what I believe forever or forsake it because of some tragic event(s).
 
I know for a fact Muslim Scholars ar enot psychologist therefore they are not equipped to answer the social conditions of disbelief so they answer in accordance to how a theologian would answer. Is this the best kind of advice for any monotheistic faith? No, at least not for all circumstances. Sometimes telling someone whose faith is faltering to pray to God is not the best advice. One needs to examine the social conditions on why this individual is starting to lose faith this is equivalent to telling an alcoholic to stop drinking (on their own) because its bad for them. Unfortunately these authors didn't have that particular guidance and consequently, end up disbelieving in God and religion altogether.
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Gulliver
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Quote Gulliver Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2008 at 11:48am
You said it Israfil :-) It's a bit like 'idolatry' I think, and why it is forbidden. Or whatever the word is - prohibited. If we put any thing or person in the place of God, taught to do such a thing, place our complete trust in that 'created' being, thing. Then if that person or thing 'fails' - then 'God' 'fails,' and we are faced with a spiritual wounding that rips to the core, and can take a long time to 'heal' - if ever. I have often wondered about the little children.
 
Some times I have been in classes of the beautiful innocent little children. And you wonder to yourself why they are taught to be anything. Why do they have to become Muslim, Christian, Jew - or anything else. Does the 'religion' itself become an 'idol'.
 
I dunno.  But thanks for the sharing and insights there. Fully agree. I think it's an awful thing that we are stripped of belief because we were led to believe in 'idols'.
 
There - the ologists among you can have a field day. LOL ;-)
 
God bless
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Friendship
 
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2008 at 1:18pm
Brother Israfil.
If you received my reply add this to it. People do not understand that today Islam is to be practiced indoors because the Muslims do not have a central authority to enforce respecting the Sunna. We do not know where one can have an opinion and where an opinion is not allowed. We rush to allow our children to start praying without allowing them to know the implication. I too studied Medicine and in the university a christian approached me wanting to accept Islam. I am adviced him to think twice and not to hurry and that he should better go back to his hometown and embrace it there. Our greatest mistake is that we believe only on facing the Ka'aba and praying without establishing the 1st pillar of Islam which is the Khalifate. Even while praying people do it the way they like and not acording to the Sunna. If you ask them they will mention the name of an Imam. Is this not disbelief? Is there one more serious and unpardonable by Allah more than this one? I do alot of reading especially the Commentary of the Bible by Reverend Matthew. The matter is not that of disbelief but the reality awaiting us. Consider what Allah told Prophet Moses in Numbers 14:20-23, who among the followers of Muhammad will enter Paradise today?  Read also Malachi 2:17. Is it not our attitude that the Lord is pleased with evil and doesn't care about justice? Friendship
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Quote Gulliver Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2008 at 1:40pm
 
 
Jesus says, "suffer the little children to come unto me. For to such as these belongs the Kingdom of Heaven".
 
How do we pass on the beautiful gift of real and true faith in God to children, that very gift that gets them through the dark to the light - without destroying them, even unwittingly, in the process. It would seem that Jesus would not have approved of 'indoctrination'. Where is Islam on teaching children about God.
 
I wonder if we can do it. Or if life itself must be the 'teacher' and passer on of 'true faith in God'.
 
 
"Love your neighbour as you love your self."
 
 

 
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2008 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by Israfil

Contrary to what scholars say about "disbelief" (Kufr), I've come to the personal conclusion that disbelief is socially determined.
 
Israfil, you said; " Freewill is not just about rejection. It is about doing what we want, when we want, without restriction. Even if I know taking a sip of beer is against Islam and I still do it, it is my exercise of my freewill. "
 
 
 


Edited by abuayisha - 18 September 2008 at 1:43pm
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2008 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

Originally posted by Israfil

Contrary to what scholars say about "disbelief" (Kufr), I've come to the personal conclusion that disbelief is socially determined.
 
Israfil, you said; " Freewill is not just about rejection. It is about doing what we want, when we want, without restriction. Even if I know taking a sip of beer is against Islam and I still do it, it is my exercise of my freewill. "
 
 
 
 
 
Abu you missed the point.  I'm talking about what contributing factors lead to people to disliking a religion and/or rejecting it. Of course its so-called rreewill when I do something that transgresses the laws of that particular religion, but what are the contributing elements of why I do that? Is the person unhappy with the religion? Do they not have supportive elements to help maintain their faith? Although its a persons own doing in sinning how does someone go from religious to sinner? Or an adherent of that religion to wanting to disassociate themselves from that faith?
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2008 at 9:14pm
Israfil:
 
You are confusing followers of a faith with the faith itself. If someone is unhappy with Islam are they unhappy with the tenants and teachings of Islam or those around them who profess to be Muslims and follow Islam.
 
Blaming the religion for someone's unhappiness is the same as blaming the religion for acts of violence. Islam has never made anyone unhappy or caused them to disbelieve. It is how each individual perceives Islam, or any faith, and what they choose to do with that perception.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2008 at 10:08pm
S.A.
 
There is no confusion its a natural response to individuals in paritcular situations. Like I said after reading several books from "former Muslims" and reading their experiences and events that lead up to their consequential beliefs it appears evident that social influences/experiences influenced their disbelief. For example when Ibn  Warraq (mind you this is a pseudonymn to protect his real name) heard about the Rusdhie affair his belief in Islam wanned when he viewed thousands of Muslims calling for Salman Rushdie's death. Mind you this is an individual who knew the whole Qur'an at an young age and attended a Madrasa.
 
Or what about Irshad Manji who ignorantly targets Muslims especially Palestinians and justify the Israeli ethnic cleansing. Her sickness and hatred on Muslims especially calling for the reformation of orthodox Islam ideology stems from someonewhere, so quite frankly my question draws from the inquiry of where these individuals get their ideas? what makes them so angry or dislike Islam. Contrary to what you think people will associate the religion with the people. Don't think so? Look at 9/11. Individuals did that not Islam but ignorant people will associate what happene that day with the religion.
 
What goes on in the middle east people have associated the violence with Islam. Of course you are familiar with the constant bombardment of evangelicals saying "Islam condones killing" they always use current events and Quran to support their distorted view. So as you rightly point out the views tend to become distorted and not the faith, people consequently and ultimately (and naturally) blame religion for the actions of human beings. Confusion? I don't think so you should read the post carefully.
 
Besides this is not my opinion this is what I have read and researched on.


Edited by Israfil - 18 September 2008 at 10:09pm
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