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Prophets - Jesus
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Topic: Was Christ (pbuh) really Crucified?
    Posted: 14 March 2005 at 4:01pm

Topic: Was Christ (pbuh) really Crucified? (1 of 11), Read 63 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: DavidC
Date: Sunday, December 26, 2004 10:03 AM

Don't forget that the crucifixion was performed by the
Roman soldiers - a highly disciplined people. Considering
the miraculous nature of Isa I am not going to to discount
some miracle may have occurred.

But this simplistic explanation makes little sense when
one considers the Roman centurions.

DavidC
================================================

Topic: Was Christ (pbuh) really Crucified? (2 of 11), Read 47 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: DavidC
Date: Monday, December 27, 2004 06:15 AM

Islamforever, our differences are small compared to our
mutual respect of Jesus and Muhummad. There are many
levels of understanding the meaning of Jesus - far too
many to restrict ourselves to such historical fine
points when we have so much in common.

So many of my Muslim friends here have a respect for
Jesus - I can't name all of them - I'm sure we could all
have a wonderful disucssion. Even in disagreement,
disucssion with you all is a pleasure.

DavidC

=============================================

Topic: Was Christ (pbuh) really Crucified? (3 of 11), Read 57 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: DavidC
Date: Monday, December 27, 2004 11:40 AM

I think we agree on just about everything. I also believe
Muhummad was a prophet of God, and that there is only
one God.

The Trinity is an unnecessary elaboration. We all know
God can do whatever he wishes. He has appeared on
earth before, in the form of a buring bush which spoke to
Moses. We also know from biblical and Quranic sources
Jesus performed amazing miracles, including raising the
dead and being born of a virgin. As the prophet predicted
to oversee the end of time Jesus is exceptional. A son
(extension) of God? A point for scholars but of little real
world importance.

The Trinity concept overall has confused more people
than it has helped. Many Christian sects ecschew the
entire idea, preferring a more Islamic conception of
monotheism. I think that is probably the more sensible
idea.

DavidC
==============================================

Topic: Was Christ (pbuh) really Crucified? (4 of 11), Read 54 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: fezziwig
Date: Monday, December 27, 2004 12:55 PM

On 12/27/2004 12:24:00 PM, Islamforever >...And God, you
>said can do anything, but lets
>not go to the point where we
>blaspheme and say that he does
>ungodly things as far as
>becoming a man.

You are mistaken in this dichotomy. Whatever god does is godly.

>...If God becomes
>a man he seizes to be God.

So YOU say. God, of course, says differently in the bible.

Beware of making the blaspheme of dictating terms to god.

F
=================================================

Topic: Was Christ (pbuh) really Crucified? (5 of 11), Read 48 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: DavidC
Date: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 08:26 AM

Jesus was the ultimate demonstrationof love and humility.

There are Sufi stories about the king who dressed up like
his subjects in order to properly assess the state of his
kingdom.

I do not want to argue with you Islamforever - you
obviously have a personal relationship with Jesus and his
Sharia plays a part in your faith. That makes me joyous,
even if you do not belive as I do. I am only trying to make
my opinion known, and show it is not as absurd as some
maks it out to be.

Islam is a marvelous religion that has taught me much
about Christianity. I would not want to change one iota of
your belief, but only to understand mine.
DavidC

======================================================

Topic: Was Christ (pbuh) really Crucified? (6 of 11), Read 46 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: DavidC
Date: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 07:29 AM

It's all about understanding, not convincing. I have always
congratulated those who announced their Islamic
reversions here, because submission to God is so much
more important than the specifics.

DavidC

==============================================

Topic: Was Christ (pbuh) really Crucified? (7 of 11), Read 27 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: Janah islamgaril@yahoo.com
Date: Sunday, January 02, 2005 04:53 PM


Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And because of their saying (in boast), ‘We killed Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allaah,’ — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of ‘Eesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]”

[al-Nisa’ 4:157]

Rather the problem rests with the Christians for whom the doctrine of the crucifixion and redemption has become a central issue, so much so that the cross is the symbol of their religion.

It is strange that they differ concerning the form of this cross which indicates their confusion about this fabrication.

There are differences between their Gospels and their historians regarding everything that has to do with the story of the crucifixion.

They differ concerning the timing of the Last Supper, which according to them was one of the events in the lead-up to the crucifixion. They differ concerning the traitor who led (the Romans) to Christ – did that happen at least one day before the Last Supper, as narrated by Luke, or during it, after Christ gave him the piece of bread, as narrated by John?

Was Christ the one who carried his cross, as John says, as was customary with one who was going to be crucified, according to Nottingham, or was it Simon of Cyrene, as the other three Gospels state?

They say that two thieves were crucified alongside Christ, one on his right and one on his left, so what was the attitude of these two towards the Messiah who was being crucified, as they claim?

Did the thieves scorn him for being crucified, and say that his Lord had abandoned him and left him to his enemies? Or did only one of them scorn him, and did the other rebuke the one who scorned him?

At what hour did this crucifixion take place – was it in the third hour, as Mark says, or in the sixth as John says?

What happened after the so-called crucifixion?

Mark says that the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom. Matthew adds that the earth shook and rocks crumbled, and many of the saints rose from their graves and entered the holy city, appearing to many. Luke says that the sun turned dark, and the veil of the Temple was torn in the middle, and when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God and said, “Truly this man was righteous.”

But John does not know anything about all that!

These are not the only weak elements and indications of falseness in the story of the crucifixion, as narrated in the gospels. Rather the one who studies the details of the gospel narratives of this story will, with the least effort, notice the great differences in the details of this story, which are such that it is impossible to believe it all or even any part of it!

How desperate are the failed attempts to fill this gap and conceal the faults of this distorted book. Allaah indeed spoke the truth when He said in His Book which He has preserved (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do they not then consider the Qur’aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”

[al-Nisa’ 4:82]

Apart from the fact that the gospel accounts are not sound, and their authors themselves admit that they were not revealed to the Messiah in this form, nor were they even written during his lifetime, none of the witnesses were present at the events to which they testify, as Mark says:

“Then everyone deserted him and fled.”

Mark 14:50 – New International Version (NIV)

Because these events were not witnessed by anyone who narrated them, there is a great deal of room for imagination and poetic licence.

We will complete our discussion of the fable of the crucifixion of Christ (peace be upon him) by looking at what the Gospels say about the Messiah’s prediction that he would be saved from death:

On one occasion the Pharisees and chief priests sent the guards to arrest him and he said to them:

“I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me, and where I am, you cannot come.”

John 7:33-34 – NIV

Elsewhere he says:

“Once more Jesus said to them, ‘I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.’

This made the Jews ask, ‘Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, “Where I go, you cannot come”?’

But he continued, ‘You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.’

‘Who are you?’ they asked.

‘Just what I have been claiming all along,’ Jesus replied. ‘I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.’

They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.

So Jesus said, ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.’”

John 8:21-29 – NIV

Then at the end he tells them again:

“For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'”

Matthew 23:39 – NIV, also Luke 13:35

The Messiah, as these texts and others show, was certain that God would never hand him over to his enemies, and would never forsake him.

“But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

John 16:32-33

Because of that the passers by, and indeed everyone who attended the so-called crucifixion, mocked the Messiah, as the writer of this Gospel says (although that could not have been true):

“Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads

and saying, ‘You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!’

In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him.

‘He saved others,’ they said, ‘but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.

He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, “I am the Son of God.”’

In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.”

Matthew 27:39-44 – NIV

But it seems that Jesus’ certainty that God was with him began to waver, according to the distorted Gospel narrative, (although that could not have been true):

“Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, ‘Sit here while I go over there and pray.’

He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.

Then he said to them, ‘My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.’

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.’

Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping.


He went away a second time and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.’

When he came back, he again found them sleeping, …

So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, ‘Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners’”

Matthew 26:36-45 – NIV

Luke describes the scene and says:

“And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow.

‘Why are you sleeping?’ he asked them. ‘Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.’”

Luke 22:44-46 – NIV

Because of this mockery of the message of Christ – according to their claims – and because Christ thought that God was with him and would never forsake him, then it follows that the writer who fabricated this dramatic scene would end it with a vision of the despair of the Messiah and his feelings of being abandoned by God – exalted be Allaah far above what the wrongdoers say. The fabricator says:

“From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?’--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Matthew 27:38-47 – NIV

==================================================

Topic: Was Christ (pbuh) really Crucified? (8 of 11), Read 24 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: Islamforever islamforever@comcast.net
Date: Sunday, January 02, 2005 08:31 PM

Mary goes to touch Jesus (pbuh) and he says, John 20: 15, 16,17 " Touch me not,for I have not yet ascended unto my father." In the language of the Jews at that time, it would mean, he has not yet been dead. Moreover, he may have suffered but did not die or was not crucified on the cross, thus falsifying the alleged crucifixion.


Jesus's (pbuh) deciples were overjoyed to see him cause they heard from here say that he had died on the cross and resurrected, and since they know already that resurrected bodies are angelized they thought he was a spirit so they were terrified and thought he was a spirit. So Jesus (pbuh) he clarified that doubt by saying. "Behold its me, handle my hands and see for a spirit has no flesh and bones like you see me have". They we're not eyewitness according to Mark 14:50, " and they all (Deciples) fled and left him at the seen.

Since Jesus Died and resurrected, resurrected bodies are spiritualized, Luke 20:35-36 why would Jesus (pbuh) be afraid of the Jews if he was spiritualized? Meaning that he was not dead, only a fleshly body would be afraid of the Jews thus disguising himself as a Gardener-Carpenter to hide from the Jews. If they see that he didn't really die, they would try again, that's why Jesus (pbuh) remained disguised and forever hiding.


John 19:33-34 " But when they came to Jesus (pbuh) and saw that he was already dead, SAW, that he was already dead, they did not bother to break his bones", and that's a fulfillment of prophecy that his leg will not be broken. 34, "but one soldier thrust his lance into his side, and immediately blood and water flowed and Gushed out," (sign of life) which means that he had life in his body. According to the soldiers he "appeared" to be dead so therefore Jesus' (pbuh) leg would not be of any use only if Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE.

================================================

Topic: Was Christ (pbuh) really Crucified? (9 of 11), Read 28 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: Islamforever islamforever@comcast.net
Date: Sunday, January 02, 2005 08:34 PM

According to Psalms 118:17-18 which states " I shall not die but live and declare the deeds of the lord." 18 also states, "The lord chastised me harshly, but did not hand me over to death." This verse goes side by side with the prophecy of Matthews 12:38-40.

THE PROOF WE HAVE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR...

In the encyclopedia Biblica, under the article "Cross," Column 960 says, "When the spare was thrust, Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE."

German Scientists who carried out experiments on the "Shroud of Turin" said that the heart of Jesus had not stopped functioning — that he was ALIVE!

===================================================

Topic: Was Christ (pbuh) really Crucified? (10 of 11), Read 27 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: Abuisa e_lynx_i@yahoo.com
Date: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 01:15 PM

I was just wondering DaividC r u a Muslim or not? if u r then alhamdullillah and if u r not y? u believe that Muhammed (pbuh) is a prophet and u believe in the one God. this was just something that i thought about when reading these posts.

============================================

Topic: Was Christ (pbuh) really Crucified? (11 of 11), Read 17 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: Islamforever islamforever@comcast.net
Date: Friday, January 07, 2005 09:22 AM

In the encyclopedia Biblica, under the article "Cross," Column 960 says, "When the spare was thrust, Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE."



Edited by Nausheen
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 14 March 2005 at 4:05pm
Topic: Christ(pbuh) was not crucified. (1 of 1), Read 15 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: adilahmed1 firefutures20@hotmail.com
Date: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 12:21 PM

Christ was not crucified! According to the quran, he was lifted my Allah(god) into the heavens, and guy who chased him, Allah changed this face and impression into Jesus(pbuh). The man that chased Jesus was known to be a Jew, according to the quran, I believe so.

That is why in the quran it mentions that Jesus well someday be sent down from the heavens to complete his life. It makes perfect sense, a man who has not died and sent directly to heaven is just not possible.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 14 March 2005 at 4:10pm
Topic: Christ(pbuh) was not crucified 2 (1 of 8), Read 35 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: adilahmed1 firefutures20@hotmail.com
Date: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 12:44 PM

Another sensible reason why Christ(pbuh) was not crucified is because, Allah would never let his prophet be tortured and crucified.

For example, Ibraham(phuh) was a prophet of Allah, and when he was young boy, during his time people worshiped idols, so what he did was he took a stick and broke all the idols in the store, when people came to an understanding that Ibraham broke the idols, the people in the town decided to throw in the fire and burn him alive. Just before they threw him in the fire, Allah, cooled down the flames, and Ibraham(pbuh) never burned and people where in shock.

So, if Allah didn't let Ibraham burn in fire, how could Allah let Jesus(pbuh) get crucified. Especially, christians believe that he is the son of god, if that is true according to christians, how can a father let his son get brutally crucified. It doesn't make any sense.

There are so many stories of diffent prophets, that could have suffered a massive pain. And Allah didn't let it happen. So, there is no way he will let Christ suffer the pain of crucification.

===================================================

Topic: Christ(pbuh) was not crucified 2 (2 of 8), Read 26 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: Islamforever islamforever@comcast.net
Date: Thursday, January 06, 2005 07:36 PM

Yes, it also states in the Bible itself, Acts 1:3 it states, " He presented himself ALIVE to them with many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God." which proves Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE. When you are alive you rise, when you die you resurrect.

In Hebrews 5:7, even Paul confirms that his supplications did not fall on deaf ears it states " In the days when he was in the flesh, he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence." Which means he was saved from being killed, Al-hamdulillah.

I have so much answers to this so called death of Christ pbuh that I could give a Four hour lecture on CNN commanding the attention of all christians one given sunday night to really strengthen their belief in our prophet and Messenger, pubh.

============================================

Topic: Christ(pbuh) was not crucified 2 (2 of 8), Read 26 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: Islamforever islamforever@comcast.net
Date: Thursday, January 06, 2005 07:36 PM

Yes, it also states in the Bible itself, Acts 1:3 it states, " He presented himself ALIVE to them with many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God." which proves Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE. When you are alive you rise, when you die you resurrect.

In Hebrews 5:7, even Paul confirms that his supplications did not fall on deaf ears it states " In the days when he was in the flesh, he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence." Which means he was saved from being killed, Al-hamdulillah.

I have so much answers to this so called death of Christ pbuh that I could give a Four hour lecture on CNN commanding the attention of all christians one given sunday night to really strengthen their belief in our prophet and Messenger, pubh.

=================================================

Topic: Christ(pbuh) was not crucified 2 (3 of 8), Read 30 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: Islamforever islamforever@comcast.net
Date: Thursday, January 06, 2005 07:39 PM

According to the book of Mark, 15:44, "Pilate was amazed that Jesus (pbuh) was already dead. He summoned the centurion and asked him if Jesus (pbuh) had already died. he knew no man can die within three hours on the cross. Because this crucifixion was to be a slow, lingering death. Pilate knew from his own experience that death on the cross doesn't occur in such a short time. Since it occurred in such time, pilate marvels and just gives the body over to Joseph" of Arimathea. Pilate Knew that Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE because of the time that he was taken down from the cross, but didn't say anything due to the fact that he was in favor of Jesus (pbuh) and that he didn't want them to know that he still had life in his body. And In many respects, the timing of Jesus' death is a bit too opportune.
According to the system in vogue Gospels, pastors, evangelist, preachers and Christians, Jesus was on the cross for three hours, which means that he was taken down from the cross on the third hour. In three hours, a person can't and wouldn't die from being nailed to a cross. its physically impossible for a person to die of crucifixion from being nailed to a cross on the third hour. Moreover Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE!

================================================

Topic: Christ(pbuh) was not crucified 2 (4 of 8), Read 28 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: Angel
Date: Friday, January 07, 2005 02:13 AM


"What experience & history teach is this: that people & governments have never learned anything from history".

~Please dont frown! For you never know who may be falling in love with your smile!~
------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------

Islamforever, don't forget Jesus supposedly has carried his cross thru the streets and had the crown of thorns onhis head, And if there is much blood lose, then thebody would be weak. So really really depending on the amount of blood lose, Jesus could've died in 3 hours.
It depends on how weak or strong the body is and this we don't reall have an acount for.


Angel.

================================================

Topic: Christ(pbuh) was not crucified 2 (5 of 8), Read 28 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: Islamforever islamforever@comcast.net
Date: Friday, January 07, 2005 04:11 PM

1. I hope your not implying that the "Crown" could have contributed a lot of blood loss to Jesus pbuh. If we follow that logic just for the sake of argument. Are you saying that Allah would save two other dieing men from the cross and leave Jesus pbuh to die? Its almost like you're adding on to a myth that is already in the ground sister. I've read a lot of your posts and I know that you're more intelligent than that. Your actually saying indirectly that when Jesus pbuh prayed to Allah, Allah didn't answer his prayers? I don't think Allah would ignore is servant's cry. German Scientists who carried out experiments on the "Shroud of Turin" said that the heart of Jesus had not stopped functioning — that he was ALIVE!
According to Psalms 118:17-18 which states " I shall not die but live and declare the deeds of the lord." 18 also states, "The lord chastised me harshly, but did not hand me over to death." This verse goes side by side with the prophecy of Matthews 12:38-40 Moreover, in John 19:33-34 " But when they came to Jesus pbuh and saw that he was already dead, SAW, that he was already dead, they did not bother to break his bones", and that's a fulfillment of prophecy that his leg will not be broken. 34, "but one soldier thrust his lance into his side, and immediately blood and water flowed and Gushed out," (sign of life) which means that he had life in his body. According to the soldiers he appeared<<----- to be dead so therefore Jesus' pbuh leg would not be of any use only if Jesus pbuh was ALIVE.

====================================================

Topic: Christ(pbuh) was not crucified 2 (6 of 8), Read 25 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: Angel
Date: Friday, January 07, 2005 02:15 AM


On 1/6/2005 7:36:00 PM, Islamforever wrote:
>Yes, it also states in the
>Bible itself, Acts 1:3 it
>states, " He presented himself
>ALIVE to them with many proofs
>after he had suffered,
>appearing to them during forty
>days and speaking about the
>kingdom of God." which proves
>Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE. When
>you are alive you rise, when
>you die you resurrect.

Is it not that the Soul or spirit is alive while the phyiscal body is dead?


Angel.

==================================================

Topic: Christ(pbuh) was not crucified 2 (7 of 8), Read 32 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: Islamforever islamforever@comcast.net
Date: Saturday, January 08, 2005 07:18 PM

No Angel, that I will answer Logically with tremendous intricate detail with no emotional theological explanations. And please read it all. Jesus pbuh never died period! After suffering on the cross he appears In the upper room and he shows his hands and feet, Luke 24:35-36 "behold its me, handle my hands and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones, like you see me have" And he say, "do you have anything to eat." (Do spirits eat?) Which means he was ALIVE and not dead cause when you die and resurrect you would be a spiritual body as said in Luke 20:35-36, 1 Corintians 15:42-44 and also Hebrews 5:27

And no, he didn't die at all, this is just an assumption which can logically be falsified with the help of reason logics and science with an open mind.

In the encyclopedia Biblica, under the article "Cross," Column 960 says, "When the spare was thrust, Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE."

Jesus's (pbuh) deciples were overjoyed to see him casue they heard from heresay that he had died on the cross and resurrected, and since they know already that resurrected bodies are angelized they thought he was a spirit so they were terrified and thought he was a spirit. So Jesus (pbuh) he clarified that doubt by saying. "Behold its me, handle my hands and see for a spirit has no flesh and bones like you see me have". They we're not eyewitness according to Mark 14:50, " and they all (Deciples) fled and left him at the seen.

In Acts 1:3 it states, " He presented himself ALIVE to them with many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God." which proves Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE.

Disguise is only possible or necessary if he was physicalized and ALIVE, thus stating that resurrected bodies are spiritualized and not physicalized. Therefore its not logical for a spiritual body to be a disguise, which proves that he didn't die or resurrected.
==================================================

Topic: Christ(pbuh) was not crucified 2 (8 of 8), Read 32 times
Conf: Issues: Removing Misconceptions
From: yesha
Date: Saturday, January 08, 2005 11:15 PM

[Another sensible reason why Christ(pbuh) was not crucified is because, Allah would never let his prophet be tortured and crucified.]

Luke 11:47-49
47 "Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them.
48 So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs.
49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.'
(NIV)

Your position is historically inaccurate. The religous experts at Jesus's time believed that if they had lived in their forfathers time they would have listened, and obeyed. But God sent them prophets and apostles, whom most of whom died unnatural deaths. For example, John the Baptist was beheaded.

[
For example, Ibraham(phuh) was a prophet of Allah, and when he was young boy, during his time people worshiped idols, so what he did was he took a stick and broke all the idols in the store, when people came to an understanding that Ibraham broke the idols, the people in the town decided to throw in the fire and burn him alive. Just before they threw him in the fire, Allah, cooled down the flames, and Ibraham(pbuh) never burned and people where in shock.
]

This story is not a biblical one, though it may be based on Daniel.

[
So, if Allah didn't let Ibraham burn in fire, how could Allah let Jesus(pbuh) get crucified. Especially, christians believe that he is the son of god, if that is true according to christians, how can a father let his son get brutally crucified. It doesn't make any sense.
]

He demonstrates his love for us.
Rom 5:8
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
(NIV)

[
There are so many stories of diffent prophets, that could have suffered a massive pain. And Allah didn't let it happen. So, there is no way he will let Christ suffer the pain of crucification.
]

Consider this:

Matt 26:53-54
53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
(NIV)

Luke 24:44-48
44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 You are witnesses of these things.
(NIV)

This is an example of what was written in the Prophets about him:
Here is Isiahs (6-7 hundred years before Christ) prophecy concerning this:

Isa 53:7-8,11
7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied
(NIV)

The Christ will suffer, die, and be raised to life.

////////////////////////////////

[
Yes, it also states in the Bible itself, Acts 1:3 it states, " He presented himself ALIVE to them with many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God." which proves Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE. When you are alive you rise, when you die you resurrect.
]

When you are raised from the dead you are alive. Both luke and acts cleary portray that Christ died. See above quote.

[
In Hebrews 5:7, even Paul confirms that his supplications did not fall on deaf ears it states " In the days when he was in the flesh, he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence." Which means he was saved from being killed, Al-hamdulillah.
]

Hebrews, as well clearly portrays that Christ had died, and was saved from death (raised to life).

Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
(NIV)

[
According to the book of Mark, 15:44, "Pilate was amazed that Jesus (pbuh) was already dead. He summoned the centurion and asked him if Jesus (pbuh) had already died. he knew no man can die within three hours on the cross. Because this crucifixion was to be a slow, lingering death. Pilate knew from his own experience that death on the cross doesn't occur in such a short time. Since it occurred in such time, pilate marvels and just gives the body over to Joseph" of Arimathea. Pilate Knew that Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE because of the time that he was taken down from the cross, but didn't say anything due to the fact that he was in favor of Jesus (pbuh) and that he didn't want them to know that he still had life in his body. And In many respects, the timing of Jesus' death is a bit too opportune.
According to the system in vogue Gospels, pastors, evangelist, preachers and Christians, Jesus was on the cross for three hours, which means that he was taken down from the cross on the third hour. In three hours, a person can't and wouldn't die from being nailed to a cross. its physically impossible for a person to die of crucifixion from being nailed to a cross on the third hour. Moreover Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE!
]

People die without even being nailed to a cross. Jesus died when he gave up his spirit.

John 10:17-18
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life-- only to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
(NIV)

[
German Scientists who carried out experiments on the "Shroud of Turin" said that the heart of Jesus had not stopped functioning — that he was ALIVE!
]

whom?

{Upon examining the chest, the pathologist notes a large blood stain over the right pectoral area Close examination shows a variance in intensity of the stain consistent with the presence of two types of fluid, one comprised of blood, and the other resembling water. There is distinct evidence of a gravitational effect on this stain with the blood flowing downward and without spatter of other evidence of the projectile activity which would be expected from blood issuing from a functional arterial source. This wound has all the characteristics of a postmortem type flow of blood from a body cavity or from an organ such as the heart. At the upper plane of the wound is an ovoid skin defect which is characteristic of a penetrating track produced by a sharp puncturing instrument.} - http://www.shroud.com/bucklin.htm

[
According to Psalms 118:17-18 which states " I shall not die but live and declare the deeds of the lord." 18 also states, "The lord chastised me harshly, but did not hand me over to death."
]

I can see how one could interpret this to support such a position. But consider first David, who did die.

[This verse goes side by side with the prophecy of Matthews 12:38-40]

Jonah, who was in the deep(a place of death) for three days and then comming up again to the land of the living clearly portrays Christ dieing for three days and being raised to life.

[Moreover, in John 19:33-34 " But when they came to Jesus pbuh and saw that he was already dead, SAW, that he was already dead, they did not bother to break his bones", and that's a fulfillment of prophecy that his leg will not be broken. 34, "but one soldier thrust his lance into his side, and immediately blood and water flowed and Gushed out," (sign of life) which means that he had life in his body.]

I am unfamilar with how a spear being thrust in one's side to ensure that they are dead, and blood and water comes out, is a sign of life?

[
No Angel, that I will answer Logically with tremendous intricate detail with no emotional theological explanations. And please read it all. Jesus pbuh never died period! After suffering on the cross he appears In the upper room and he shows his hands and feet, Luke 24:35-36 "behold its me, handle my hands and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones, like you see me have" And he say, "do you have anything to eat." (Do spirits eat?) Which means he was ALIVE and not dead cause when you die and resurrect you would be a spiritual body as said in Luke 20:35-36, 1 Corintians 15:42-44 and also Hebrews 5:27
]

This is an interesting topic. Was Jesus given, a new glories, imperishable, uncorrupting body, as we are told we will receive. The body must die because of sin. Because of this we need a new body. But Jesus never sinned. Does he need a new body. Perhaps he will keep his human body, the only one to do so. The most glorious body, one made in the image of God. A fitting reward.

[
In the encyclopedia Biblica, under the article "Cross," Column 960 says, "When the spare was thrust, Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE."
]

What ever it says, it's just an interpretation by somebody about the same scriptures we read in the bible. We can read it for ourselves what it says, and I'm not aware of anything that suggests Jesus was still alive at that point.

[
Jesus's (pbuh) deciples were overjoyed to see him casue they heard from heresay that he had died on the cross and resurrected, and since they know already that resurrected bodies are angelized they thought he was a spirit so they were terrified and thought he was a spirit. So Jesus (pbuh) he clarified that doubt by saying. "Behold its me, handle my hands and see for a spirit has no flesh and bones like you see me have". They we're not eyewitness according to Mark 14:50, " and they all (Deciples) fled and left him at the seen.
]

The apostles were indeed eye witnesses as is shown in the gospels. John 19:26, for example.

[
In Acts 1:3 it states, " He presented himself ALIVE to them with many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God." which proves Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE.
]

As the text explains, he was raised to life.

[
Disguise is only possible or necessary if he was physicalized and ALIVE, thus stating that resurrected bodies are spiritualized and not physicalized. Therefore its not logical for a spiritual body to be a disguise, which proves that he didn't die or resurrected.
]

There is a lot of presumtion in this argument.
The new body is probably for the new heaven and earth.
How can we say if he already has it, or is yet to get it, or even if he needs it?

éùò

Jesus speaking: For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (John 5:21-24 NKJ)

 

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Abdulsalam
 
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Quote Abdulsalam Replybullet Posted: 19 March 2005 at 5:49pm

Rather than duplicate the many interesting points made here by all of you, and rather than use this as an opportunity to merely re-state beliefes, I would like to simply offer 2 historical facts that should not be overlooked by anyone who sincerely cares about this topic, as they have a great bearing on the crucifixion story:

1) Crucifixion was reserved for political crimes that infringed on the government's authority. It is impossible that the two other men on crosses alongside Jesus could have been thieves, as theft was not a political crime under Roman law and not punishable by execution. 

2) Crucifixion was one of 3 methods of execution dedicated for those who the government wished to destroy completey - burning to death, feeding to the lions, and crucifixion. What they share in common is that they are intended to deprive anyone from having any remains of the person executed. It is easy to imagine, though horrible, how burinng a body long enough turns even bones to ashes and how feeding to lions causes almost all the body to be consumed. For the same to be true of crucifixion, the body is left on the cross long enough (weeks or more) in order for it to be eaten completely by birds of prey who pick the morsels and fly off with them (and make even more of an example of the offender). The point here being that the body of Jesus or anyone crucified would not have been taken down and given to anyone for burial - crucifixion was specifically selected as the form of execution in order to prevent exactly such a thing.

Therefore the gospel accounts to this effect must be false and fabricated at a later time by people far removed from the political and legal realities of Roman-governed Judea.

 

 

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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 20 March 2005 at 11:02am
Respectfully, Abdulsalam, your arguments are unconvincing.

It is like saying that American law forbids torture therefore Abu Ghraib
could never have occurred. Military occupation governments have always
operated with a great degree of autonomy.

Hundreds of early Christians - who were Jesus' contemporaries and would
have known the facts first hand - chose martyrdom rather than make a
simple verbal denial of the divinity of Christ. They did not choose torture
and death to protect a lie.

DavidC
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 21 March 2005 at 9:52am

I think, DavidC, there is some more to the narration of Abdulsalam, that I may like to add to it, not necessarily stressing over his point. Beside other logical arguments presented above to negate the crucifiction of Jesus (PBUH), this is related to the kind of confusion created in the accounts of biblical author of new testament. Probably you know it or not, that at the time of Jesus, there was another Jew whose name was also Jesus, and was involved in agitating revolts against the romans. He was also held in the same jail at around the same time for ofcourse, be dealt with capitol punishment of time. This fact was recently found by some scholars researching NT from latino-greeco versions. Some how or the other (intentional or unintentional), this fact has been removed from the presently held English versions of NT.

Now coming to the sources of such information that we now have in the form of NT. Out of four famous books of NT, only two are known to be authored from the direct diciples of Jesus. Of course you must be knowing that Mark and Luke were not among the famous 12 disciples. How and when did they get their ministry, no one knows. However, even for the texts from Mathew and John, very serious conerns about their authorship exists in academic circles. So far so, even some of the catholic churches, now admit (proof is on their websites let me know if you need it) that the books we now have on the names of Mathew and John in NT, were not authored by the deciples of Jesus.  I would like, DavidC, you to dewll into this area, if not done as yet, and you will be amazed how weak and poor the grounds are on which these books are considered to be from their purported authors. With this background about the authenticity of the books, I some time wonder how people may even quote them in their discussions. Rest God knows the best. Cheers!

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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 21 March 2005 at 11:11am
I'm not a scholar - I only want to share what I believe. As you probably
know, most Christians accept their religion because they are inspired by
God to do so and not because of their own logic or a book.

DavidC.
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tisha37
 
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Quote tisha37 Replybullet Posted: 24 March 2005 at 8:45pm

Good people. My husband raised an interesting question yesterday. Historical accounts always describes the tomb that Isa was in as having frankencise and oils. These were tools used to embalm a body. Why then is there a question amongst Christians about whether Christ was just a man and a prophet?

Sincerely,

Tisha

Forever be in remembrance of The Merciful.
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