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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2008 at 12:05am
 
 Thanks for presenting Maudoodi sahib here and you have done quite well. I have read about 80 % of the post. I comment on small part now.More later:
 
And since it is a state, Maududi declares it "has the right to protect its own existence by declaring those acts wrong which undermine its order", and proceeds to equate apostasy to treason. He then discusses the difference between a kafir, a dhimmi, and the appropriateness of death for them if they apostatize after conversion, and for those born of Muslim parents he states:
 
 Maudoodi is wrong, calling apostacy as treason. It can be only in time of war, when war is on. Not otherwise. That was a highhanded view of Maudoodi sahib to call the change of religion as treason.
 
 More over, he being the head of the muslim state had to protect the rights of the state by disallowing any one to change his faith. That was a bad way , poor way to protect his lot of people.
 
 He as head of state could never kill any one for change of faith being against the explicit teachings of the Quran. I feel that is the reason Allah is not giving any chance to any Maulvi to become the head of any state. Then there are so many sects too (Schools of thought). There is no unity.
 
 If it is not allowed to change religion then the preaching (tableegh) will all go down the drain. I am so surprised at Maudoodi. He is considered such a scholar. He said in a place that Islam had been spread by the sword. I am looking for the reference where he said that.
 
 And also that Imam Mahdi will come but he will not know that he is the Imam Mahdi.
 
 He was also a champion of the belief (till his last time) that Isa a.s. is alive in heavens. All other prophets have died.  later, In his Tafseer (vol. 1 page 420) he said that Quran does not make it clear whether Jesus died on this earth or went up to the sky.  That was a neutral stand between life and death for Isa a.s.
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Quote Nick Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2008 at 4:31am
It would seem to me from what I have read here that if one believes that Islam is the one true faith and leaves the faith at some point he or she is already dead to God.
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Mansoor_ali
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2008 at 12:15pm
[QUOTE=minuteman] 
 Thanks for presenting Maudoodi sahib here and you have done quite well. I have read about 80 % of the post. I comment on small part now.More later:
 
And since it is a state, Maududi declares it "has the right to protect its own existence by declaring those acts wrong which undermine its order", and proceeds to equate apostasy to treason. He then discusses the difference between a kafir, a dhimmi, and the appropriateness of death for them if they apostatize after conversion, and for those born of Muslim parents he states:
 
 Maudoodi is wrong, calling apostacy as treason. It can be only in time of war, when war is on. Not otherwise. That was a highhanded view of Maudoodi sahib to call the change of religion as treason.
 
 More over, he being the head of the muslim state had to protect the rights of the state by disallowing any one to change his faith. That was a bad way , poor way to protect his lot of people.
 
 He as head of state could never kill any one for change of faith being against the explicit teachings of the Quran. I feel that is the reason Allah is not giving any chance to any Maulvi to become the head of any state. Then there are so many sects too (Schools of thought). There is no unity.
 
 If it is not allowed to change religion then the preaching (tableegh) will all go down the drain. I am so surprised at Maudoodi. He is considered such a scholar. He said in a place that Islam had been spread by the sword. I am looking for the reference where he said that.
 
 And also that Imam Mahdi will come but he will not know that he is the Imam Mahdi.
 
 He was also a champion of the belief (till his last time) that Isa a.s. is alive in heavens. All other prophets have died.  later, In his Tafseer (vol. 1 page 420) he said that Quran does not make it clear whether Jesus died on this earth or went up to the sky.  That was a neutral stand between life and death for Isa a.s.
[/QUOTE]

 Response to minuteman

 I already said there are different views regarding death penalty for apostasy.

 For example Dr.
Jamal Badawi does not agree with the death punishment.(Source)

 You can also read views of famous scholar Dr.Yusuf Al-Qaradawi (
Source)

 Now you are claiming that in the tafssir of Quran written by Maududi, he said that Quran does not make it clear wether Jesus died on this earth or went up to the sky.

 Now i will quote it here and you can see it.

 
(4:157) and their saying: 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary', the Messenger of Allah - whereas in fact they had neither slain him nor crucified him but the matter was made dubious to them - and those who differed about it too were in a state of doubt! They have no definite knowledge of it, but merely follow conjecture; and they surely slew him not,

 (4:158) but Allah raised him to Himself. *195 Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

 
*195. This is the truth revealed by God. What is categorically asserted here is merely that the Jews did not succeed in killing the Messiah, but that God raised him unto Himself.
The Qur'an furnishes no detailed information about the actual form of this 'raising'. It neither states categorically that God raised him from the earthly sphere to some place in heaven in both body and soul, nor that his body died on earth and his soul alone was raised to heaven. Hence neither of the two alternatives can be definitely affirmed nor denied on the basis of the Qur'an. If one reflects on the Qur'anic version of the event one gets the impression that, whatever the actual form of this 'raising', the event was of an extraordinary character. This extraordinariness is evident from three things:
First, the Christians believed in the ascension of the Messiah in both body and soul, which was one of the reasons for large sections of people to believe in the godhead of Jesus. The Qur'an does not refute that idea but employs the same term, raf (i.e. 'ascension'), employed by the Christians. It is inconceivable that the Qur'an, which describes itself as the 'Clear Book', would employ an expression that might lend support to a misconception it seeks to repudiate.
Second, one might assume that either the ascension of the Messiah was of the kind that takes place at every person's death or that this 'ascension' meant merely the exaltation of a Prophet's position, like that of Idris: 'And We raised him to an exalted station' (Surah Maryam 19: 57). Had it been so, this idea would have been better expressed by a statement such as: And indeed they did not kill the Messiah; Allah delivered him from execution and caused him to die a natural death. The Jews had wanted to slight him but Allah granted him an exalted position.
Third, if this raf (exaltation, ascension) referred to in the verse: 'Allah raised him to Himself was of an ordinary kind, the statement which follows, namely that 'Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise', would seem altogether out of context. Such a statement is pertinent only in the context of an event which manifested, in a highly extraordinary manner, by the overwhelming power and wisdom of God.
The only Qur'anic argument that can be adduced to controvert this view is the verse in which the expression mutawaffika (see Surah Al 'Imran 3: 55) is employed. But as we have pointed out (see Towards Understanding the Qur'an, vol. I, Surah 3, n. 51), this word can denote either God's taking a man unto Himself in soul or taking him unto Himself in both body and soul. Arguments based on the mere use of this word are not enough to repudiate the arguments we have already adduced. Some of those who insist on the physical death of Jesus support their argument by pointing out that there is no other example of the use of the word tawaffa for God's taking unto Himself a man in body as well as in soul. But this argument is not tenable since the ascension of Jesus was a unique event in human history and, therefore, the quest for another example of the use of this term in the same context is meaningless. What is worth exploring is whether or not the use of the word in such a sense is valid according to Arabic usage. If it is, we will have to say that the choice of this particular word lends support to belief in the ascension of Jesus.
If we reflect on this verse in the light of the assumption that Jesus died physically, it appears strange that the Qur'an does not employ those terms which would exclude signifying the simultaneous physical and spiritual ascension of Jesus. On the contrary, the Qur'an prefers a term which, since it is liable to both interpretations (i.e. it can mean both spiritual and physical ascension), lends support to belief in the physical ascension of Jesus, even though that notion was used as a basis to support the false belief in the godhead of Jesus.
Belief in the physical ascension of Jesus is further reinforced by those numerous traditions which mention the return of Jesus, son of Mary, to the world and his struggle against the Anti-Christ before the end of time. (For these traditions see our appendix to Surah 33.) These traditions quite definitively establish the second coming of Jesus. Now it is for anybody to judge which is more reasonable: Jesus' return to this world after his death, or his being alive somewhere in God's universe, and returning to this world at some point in time?
(
Source)

 Below you will find a link that has a mini book that proves that Prophet Issa (latinized to Jesus) (peace be upon him) did not die according to Qur'an and that he will return.
 
 
The link also has articles from Ahadith [sayings of Prophet Muhammad (may upon him be mercy of God and peace)] for those who do believe in Hadith but call them to be metaphorical in the situation of Prophet Issa (peace be upon him). The articles from Ahadith are quite interesting as they involve interpretation of many sayings in the context of modern scenario.

 
 
 


Edited by icforumadmin - 29 September 2008 at 4:08pm
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2008 at 4:51pm
And since it is a state, Maududi declares it "has the right to protect its own existence by declaring those acts wrong which undermine its order", and proceeds to equate apostasy to treason.
Apostacy in religion would analogous to emigration from a nation, not treason.   I wonder if Maududi (or Mansoor_ali) would advocate the death penalty for emigrants.


Edited by Ron Webb - 29 September 2008 at 5:25pm
Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2008 at 7:38pm
 
 Mansoor Ali, Thank you for presenting your case in a nice way.
 
You have presented everything from Maudoodi sahib. But all the arguments of Maudoodi sahib to prove that Isa a.s. was lifted up into the sky is very weak. When he wrote that Quran does not make it clear whether Isa .a.s. died here on earth or he was lifted up alive.... I was very lenient with Maudoodi sahib. That was a very bad statement of maudoodi sahib for making a clear case as controversial and then blaming it on Allah and the Quran that Quran did not make it clear. It means it was the fault of the Quran? What a bad idea to say like that ! The Quran makes all things very clear.

Maudoodi sahib has got an idea in his head that Isa a.s. is still alive and not died and to prove that he is blaming the Quran too. We are not blind to that bad idea of Maudoodi sahib. I purposely did not touch on that point before.

So it is the fault of the Quran that it did not make something clear? God forbids such bad ideas.

Maudoodi sahib has made the grave mistake for the meaning of the word "tawaffa" which is used about 25 times in the Quran. Every where it means to take the soul and leave the body. That means sleep or death. We use this word twice in the funeral prayer too (Janazah). It only means death. No where it means taking some one completely with body and soul.

Then Maudoodi sahib made another blunder with "Tawaffa". He wrote that one dictionary meaning of this word is to take completely. I ask why he had to open the dictionary for a word which is being used in the Quran (as a technical= Istilahi word) many times. It already has a set meaning. Why he opens the dictionary? We have Salat, Zakat, technical words in the quran. Do we open any dictionary for them? To ascertain their meaning? We never do and we are not allowed to do that. Otherwise some one will say "One meaning of zakat is piety and it does not mean paying any money".

Maudoodi sahib struggled hard to keep Jesus alive. But it was very difficult job. So in the end, his writing that Quran does not make it clear whether Jesus died here on earth or he went up to sky, that was enough to prove that he did not know anything. He had come half way down from his original stand that Jesus was alive in the sky.

But even then he did not have rest and wanted to make things doubtful. So he put the blame on the Quran. (More in next post, if necessary)



Edited by minuteman - 29 September 2008 at 7:42pm
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2008 at 7:52pm
 
 We have shifted fromt he subject of apostacy to that of life and death of
 
 Isa a.s. Isa a.s. is being worshipped as God by the christians. I am presenting the verses of the Quran below to prove that he is not livng now. Please see:
 

[16:19] And Allah knows what you keep hidden and what you disclose.

[16:20] And those on whom they call besides Allah create not anything, but they are themselves created.

[16:21] They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised.

 

In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[25:1] Blessed is He who has sent down Al-Furqn to His servant, that he may be a Warner to all the worlds -

[25:2] He to Whom belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth. And He has taken unto Himself no son, and has no partner in the Kingdom, and He has created everything, and has determined its proper measure.

[25:3] Yet they have taken beside Him gods, who create nothing but are themselves created, and who have no power to harm or benefit themselves, nor have they any power over death or life or Resurrection.



Edited by minuteman - 29 September 2008 at 7:53pm
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2008 at 11:57pm
Originally posted by Nick

It would seem to me from what I have read here that if one believes that Islam is the one true faith and leaves the faith at some point he or she is already dead to God.
 
  Not really. It means that his mind is working and he is using the God given faculty to chose his faith freely. But some people do not allow the poor people to exercise the free choice of their faith. They are criminals who stop people from chosing their faith, whatever the religion.
 
 Quran says: "There is no compulsion in the matter of (any) religion."
 
  It is Fitnah to oppress people about their faith. And Fitnah (persecution) is worse than killing. (Al Fitnatu ashaddu min al Qatl.)
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2008 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by minuteman

 
 
Maudoodi sahib has made the grave mistake for the meaning of the word "tawaffa" which is used about 25 times in the Quran. Every where it means to take the soul and leave the body. That means sleep or death. We use this word twice in the funeral prayer too (Janazah). It only means death. No where it means taking some one completely with body and soul.



 I have shown my response to the topic of mutawafik here you can refer it.

 I agree that  there are different views regarding mutawafik. Islamic scholars like Javed Ahmed Ghamidi and Amin Ahsan Islahi consider it as physical death of Jesus, and hence question the return of Jesus.[7][8]

 But it is not view of all muslim scholars.Just like Sheik Jadul-Haq Ali Jadul-Haq(former Grand Sheik of Al-Azhar),Sheik M.S .Al-Munajjid(A prominent Saudi lecturer and author),Ibn Jarir,Ibn Kathir, Al,Jalalayn etc

 
 But physical death of christ is not view of majority of muslim scholars.

 Allah knows best.


 
 
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