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Message Icon Topic: Leaving Islam Punishable by Death?... Post Reply Post New Topic
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H3OO
 
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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2008 at 10:37am
SilverArrow
 i did answer this question of urs. see the last post of page 2 of this thread.  i guess it is these scholars who can answer better why theyre still considering it a part of hadith collection. i dont what is in their minds and why do they hold such rigid views. that is all i can say.
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 20 September 2008 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by H3OO

Ronn Web

i see u are very much convinced/ satisfied with arguments provided by angel though s/he  didnt provide anything from quran and the hadith she provided have already been discussed here but since it reflected a bad image on islam it seems like u didnt have any problem with those arguments but in my case u have still got some questions.
 
 
H300, there are muslims that agree that apostates should be killed.
I studied the 4 schools and sharia on this, and I have provided this information for all to see. This is the 4 schools we are talking about.
 
Does this give a bad or negative image to islam, yes, but no more than the punishment for adultery & fornication  How is stoning to death or giving lashes to a person a good image for islam ???  or punishments for stealing where you cut of one's hand. Why is those punishment quite acceptable but not the death penalty for apostacy.
 
The verse that is mentioned is quite clear, there is no vagueness and even if it is a weak one, this doesn't mean it is invalid, it has as much validity as a strong one.
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 21 September 2008 at 12:18am
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by H3OO

Ronn Web

i see u are very much convinced/ satisfied with arguments provided by angel though s/he  didnt provide anything from quran and the hadith she provided have already been discussed here but since it reflected a bad image on islam it seems like u didnt have any problem with those arguments but in my case u have still got some questions.
 
 
H300, there are muslims that agree that apostates should be killed.
I studied the 4 schools and sharia on this, and I have provided this information for all to see. This is the 4 schools we are talking about.
 
Does this give a bad or negative image to islam, yes, but no more than the punishment for adultery & fornication  How is stoning to death or giving lashes to a person a good image for islam ???  or punishments for stealing where you cut of one's hand. Why is those punishment quite acceptable but not the death penalty for apostacy.
 
The verse that is mentioned is quite clear, there is no vagueness and even if it is a weak one, this doesn't mean it is invalid, it has as much validity as a strong one.
 
 It is clear that most of the Muslims believe that punishment for apostacy is death. That may not only be the teaching of the four schools of thought but also of those who do not follow those schools.
 
 The problem is, it is now 1400 years after the time of the prophet. Many things have happened and Hadith is not as reliable as the Quran. The Quran has its status, well above the Hadith. hadith is to serve the Quran and Sunnah. If there is no verse of Quran or no Sunnah then the hadith cannot do anything. But the verdict of majority muslims is in favor of killing the apostate.
 
 I was wondering which verse was being made the base for killing the apostate. Give reference. Thanks.
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Gulliver
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Quote Gulliver Replybullet Posted: 21 September 2008 at 10:15am
I cannot begin to comprehend how it would ever be permissible to put someone to death for abandonning religion. That's diabolical. And it seems to completely contradict the, "no compulsion in religion" sura. Fear of death would be ample 'compulsion'.
 
2:34 And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.
  Wa-ith qulna lilmala-ikatiosjudoo li-adama fasajadoo illa ibleesa abawaistakbara wakana mina alkafireena
 
16:107 This because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter: and Allah will not guide those who reject Faith.
  Thalika bi-annahumu istahabbooalhayata alddunya AAala al-akhiratiwaanna Allaha la yahdee alqawma alkafireena
 
I was looking at sura 2:34 the other day for some reason, and I saw the translation of the word 'alkafareena' as 'disbeliever' - and 'one who is disobedient'.  In reference to Iblis when he refuses to prostrate before Adam.
 
Can that word have different meanings ? Alkafareena.  I have read these verses and it seems they speak about the punishment/doom of the 'afterlife'. Or even the punishment, unhappiness that comes from living selfishly.
 
If Iblis were standing with angels, and being asked by God to prostrate - he could hardly be said to be of 'those who reject faith' - 'disbeliever' in the same way a human being living in this world might 'reject faith' - 'disbelieve,' for whatever reasons.
 
 
How do you, 'reject faith' ? Being 'dis obedient' has a different connotation.
 
Just wondering.
 
 
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Quote Gulliver Replybullet Posted: 21 September 2008 at 11:41am
Another verse with, 'those who reject faith', but I don't see the word 'alkafareena' ? I can't get my Muslim friend to ask about this. He is arab. Gonna wring his neck when I do :-) lol
 
2:6 As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
  Inna allatheena kafaroo sawaonAAalayhim aanthartahum am lam tunthirhum layu/minoona
 
Maybe some arab speaker/writers here. Just wondering about translations and possible differences in meanings of words, if there are different meanings.


Edited by Gulliver - 21 September 2008 at 11:42am
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H3OO
 
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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 22 September 2008 at 7:44am
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by H3OO

Ronn Web

i see u are very much convinced/ satisfied with arguments provided by angel though s/he  didnt provide anything from quran and the hadith she provided have already been discussed here but since it reflected a bad image on islam it seems like u didnt have any problem with those arguments but in my case u have still got some questions.
 
 
H300, there are muslims that agree that apostates should be killed.
I studied the 4 schools and sharia on this, and I have provided this information for all to see. This is the 4 schools we are talking about.
 
Does this give a bad or negative image to islam, yes, but no more than the punishment for adultery & fornication  How is stoning to death or giving lashes to a person a good image for islam ???  or punishments for stealing where you cut of one's hand. Why is those punishment quite acceptable but not the death penalty for apostacy.
 
The verse that is mentioned is quite clear, there is no vagueness and even if it is a weak one, this doesn't mean it is invalid, it has as much validity as a strong one.


Angel if u read and understand properly the quranic verses related to adultery/fornication, u will realize how soft image of islam is as contary to  to general notion held as u sated above.

but 1st of all i dont think it is justified to compare the sin of adultery/ fornication with apostacy bcz the magnitude of sin in the
former case is way way greater than the sin in case of apostacy when it comes to the impact it has on the morals of the society.


Infact in islam it is considered one of the most heinous of all the social crimes which badly damages the moral values of a soceity which we can currently witness in the west, so  inorder to save  the society from such destruction, God has prescribed such a hard punishment, so that people refrain from it. in other words such punishment emphaiss the magnitude of this sin and most importantly its negative consequences in the eyes of God.


SECONdLY THE punishment is 100 strips and not stoning to death so i guess this misconception is cleared here and will be further cleared.


here are the versus of quran relating to adultery (Al-Nur, ch 24);

1. A Surah which we have sent down and which we have ordained; in it have we sent down clear signs in order that ye may receive admonition.

2. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication flog each of them with a hundred stripes; let not compassion move you in their case in a matter prescribed by Allah if ye believe in Allah and the last day; and let a party of the believers witness their punishment.

3. Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty or an unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an unbeliever marry such a woman; to the believers such a thing is forbidden.

4. And those who launch a charge against chaste women and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegation) flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after; for such men are wicked transgressors.

5. Save those who afterward repent and make amends. (For such) lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful.

6. As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;

7. And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.

8. But it would avert the punishment from the wife if she bears witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that (her husband) is telling a lie;


9. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth. (24:1-9)


By verse 4  The provision of 4 witnesses to prove adultery has made it impossible for it to be proved. i'll ask u which sensible person will commit adultery in front of even one person let alone 4. definately God also knew this but he still placed this restriction. So actually by announcing severe punishment, God has warned us to refrain from acting as such but by placing this verse he has given humans a way out and left the matter between such person and God.

similarly verse 5 clearly says if such a person repent and amends after the sin, forgive him, such is not punishable.

so does it reflect the harder image or the soft image?.

similarly verse 8  again gives a way out leaving it between the god and the sinner. So it definitely again proves how much islam cares and how much lenient it is even when it comes to punishment and provides every best possible way to deal with different aspects of a situation and makes sure that no innocent is harmed.

But what the problem is that the anti islamic groups only remember the 2nd verse of this chapter which they use to point fingers at islam but ignore the remaining verses.  All these verses are interlinked, interdependent, and leaving out/ignoring any verse will definitely
alter the true meaning.



Edited by H3OO - 22 September 2008 at 10:59am
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H3OO
 
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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 22 September 2008 at 7:53am
and as regards apostacy, what the muslims or sharia/ 4 schools of thought say don't hold any meaning unless it is proved from quran and authenticated  hadith.and there is enough proof given before that that hadith is invalid and contradicts the quran, conduct of prophet[sa] and also ones logic.





Edited by H3OO - 22 September 2008 at 10:53am
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2008 at 8:53am

 Topic:Apostasy in Islam.

 Personally i am in favour of death penalty for apostates but there are still different views regarding death penalty for apostates.

 My view is stand on Maulana Maududi's view.Let me quote his views

 Maududi

 
In the 20th Century, Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi defended traditional views on apostacy against the idea of freedom of religion in Islam.[28] He summarized what he saw as the most likely objections by critics:

  • This idea is against the freedom of conscience. How can it be right to offer an apostate the gallows when he has decided to leave Islam?
  • A faith which people maintain because of the fear of death cannot be genuine faith. This faith will be manifestly hypocritically chosen to deceive in order to save one's life. (Religious hypocrisy is the ultimate sin in Islam)
  • If all religions approve of execution for apostasy, it will be difficult not only for Muslims to embrace another religion but also for non-Muslims to embrace Islam.
  • It is contradictory to say on one hand "There is no compulsion in religion (Qur'an [Qur'an 2:256])" and "Whosoever will, let him believe and whosoever will, let him disbelieve ([Qur'an 18:29])", and on the other to threaten to punish by death who renounces Islam and moves to reject Islam.

Maududi claims that the misunderstanding and criticism arises because of a "fundamental misconception" about Islam:

If Islam is truly a "religion" in the sense that religion is understood at present, surely it would be absurd to prescribe the penalty of execution for those people who wish to leave it because of their dissatisfaction with its principles. It is not only a "religion" in the modern technical sense of that term but a complete order of life. It relates not only to the metaphysical but also to nature and everything in nature. It discourses not only on the salvation of life after death but also on the questions of prosperity, improvement and the true ordering of life before death.

Maududi also declares:

Whatever objections the critics pose regarding the punishment of the apostate, they make them bearing in mind only a single "religion" (madhhab). In contrast, when we present our arguments to demonstrate the validity of this punishment, we have in view no mere "religion" but a state which is constructed on a religion (din) and the authority of its principles rather than on the authority of a family, clan or people.

And since it is a state, Maududi declares it "has the right to protect its own existence by declaring those acts wrong which undermine its order", and proceeds to equate apostasy to treason. He then discusses the difference between a kafir, a dhimmi, and the appropriateness of death for them if they apostatize after conversion, and for those born of Muslim parents he states:

In any case the heart of the matter is that children born of Muslim lineage will be considered Muslims and according to Islamic law the door of apostasy will never be opened to them. If anyone of them renounces Islam, he will be as deserving of execution as the person who has renounced kufr to become a Muslim and again has chosen the way of kufr. All the jurists of Islam agree with this decision. On this topic absolutely no difference exists among the experts of shari'ah.

Maududi considers the threat of execution as not forcing someone to stay within the fold of Islam, but as a way of keeping those who are not truly committed out of the community of Islam. Maududi rejects the third criticism because unlike other religions which are free to exchange believers, Islam is "on whose ideas and actions society and state are constructed" cannot allow "to keep open its door that would spell its own ruin, the scattering of its own structure's parts, the stripping away of the bonds of its own existence", and he compares this to the treason penalty on the books of the U.S. and Britain. Maududi also rejects the charge of contradiction. In his words:

"There is no compulsion in religion" (la ikraha fi'd din: Qur'an [Qur'an 2:256]) means that we do not compel anyone to come into our religion. And this is truly our practice. But we initially warn whoever would come and go back that this door is not open to come and go. Therefore anyone who comes should decide before coming that there is no going back.



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