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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
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Gulliver
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Quote Gulliver Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2008 at 4:22am
"Did they further procreate more birds or just kept flying about only. Are those birds created by Jesus all mixed up with thos ebirds which are created by Allah? Can we tell which ones are which?"
 
LOL
 
Minuteman. Those birds are in my garden ;-) They are wicked horrible things. Did you ever see the movie, "The Birds" ? They are like those. LOL
 
I am just kidding. :-)
 
What is the big deal about Isa/Jesus breathing life into clay birds and them becoming living birds ? The Qu'ran does not seem to suggest that Jesus created birds. It talks about fashioning clay birds and breathing the spirit of God, life into them. Kind of co-creator perhaps. Not the same as Creator. Like parents giving life to a child. God creates - but the parents are channels of that creative power - giving life to the new creation/child. If Jesus were just a man of clay as was Adam. Then you could see in this another affirmation of the heights to which humanity is called.
 
God bless
 
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2008 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by minuteman

"Did they further procreate more birds or just kept flying about only. Are those birds created by Jesus all mixed up with those birds which are created by Allah? Can we tell which ones are which?"
 
 
 
Originally posted by Gulliver

What is the big deal about Isa/Jesus breathing life into clay birds and them becoming living birds ? The Qu'ran does not seem to suggest that Jesus created birds. It talks about fashioning clay birds and breathing the spirit of God, life into them. Kind of co-creator perhaps. Not the same as Creator. Like parents giving life to a child. God creates - but the parents are channels of that creative power - giving life to the new creation/child. If Jesus were just a man of clay as was Adam. Then you could see in this another affirmation of the heights to which humanity is called.
 
God bless
 
 
 
 For you Gulliver, there may not be a big deal. But hristians believe that God created Jesus only and then Jesus created verything of the universe. By this creation of the birds by Jesus, the Muslims are only a few steps behind the christians. Do you think it is not a big deal to learn a lesson that Jesus did not create anything.
 
 That creation of the birds by Jesus is only metaphoric. I understand the meaning of that even though I am an ignorant man. But the Quran tells that those who are being worshipped beside God ( and Jesus is one of them ), they are did not create anything. Full stop. But they are themselves created (another truth).
 
 The muslims will some day understand that the creation of the birds by Isa a.s is only symbolic, not real. They were not birds at all but they acted like birds though. I won't say who they were.


Edited by minuteman - 06 October 2008 at 9:35pm
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Gulliver
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Quote Gulliver Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2008 at 3:21am
Hi Minuteman
 
You're not, 'just an ignorant man'.  We are all ignorant of many things, especially when it comes to matters of faith and what may or may not be true of God. We all search and struggle to understand certain things and always will.
 
I am very ignorant too. Much of this is very new to me. When I read that part about Isa creating birds. It seems to me that in the Qu'ranic version, it is very much saying that what Isa does, he does by 'Allah's leave'. It is God who is the source of this 'miracle' - manifest through Isa. What's the difference in giving life to a bird and giving life to a dead limb. Curing a blind eye - with all its dead cells that nolonger function to give sight. Life is life - from the micro to the macro levels. To heal is to give life.
 
I don't think that Christians believe Jesus made everything - created it all. It says in John's gospel - the one y'all hate ;-) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God......   and through this 'Word' all things came into being - were 'made' " Paraphrasing.
 
THROUGH the Word all things were 'made' and held in existence. Even when there is talk about none coming to the Father/God, except through Me. (Jesus). This would fit with the beginning of John. If all came into existence through the Word of God. Then all will return to God through that same Word. God's Word - Be - permeating all that exists, or it simply would not exist. And as all that exists journeys to and from God - it journeys by the power of that very Word - Be.  Jesus is also called the word of God in the Qu'ran ?
 
Like God says to Jesus when he is created in Qu'ran - "Be" and he was.
 
THROUGH Isa - the power of God is made manifest in the creation of a clay bird and giving it life.
 
What is the symbolism of this for you Minuteman ? It must symbolise something in your mind.
 
There is one thing about ignorance - for all of us. If we don't know - have not seriously studied or understood what another 'faith' truly professes to believe - then we need to be careful in making blanket statements about what it is, in our ignorance we believe they may or may not believe. If you get my drift.
 
I am not trying to 'prove' anything cause I can't prove anything. Neither can anyone else here.
 
God bless
 
K
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2008 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by Gulliver

Hi Minuteman
 
You're not, 'just an ignorant man'.  We are all ignorant of many things, especially when it comes to matters of faith and what may or may not be true of God. We all search and struggle to understand certain things and always will.
 
I am very ignorant too. Much of this is very new to me. When I read that part about Isa creating birds. It seems to me that in the Qu'ranic version, it is very much saying that what Isa does, he does by 'Allah's leave'. It is God who is the source of this 'miracle' - manifest through Isa. What's the difference in giving life to a bird and giving life to a dead limb. Curing a blind eye - with all its dead cells that nolonger function to give sight. Life is life - from the micro to the macro levels. To heal is to give life.
 
I don't think that Christians believe Jesus made everything - created it all. It says in John's gospel - the one y'all hate ;-) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God......   and through this 'Word' all things came into being - were 'made' " Paraphrasing.
 
THROUGH the Word all things were 'made' and held in existence. Even when there is talk about none coming to the Father/God, except through Me. (Jesus). This would fit with the beginning of John. If all came into existence through the Word of God. Then all will return to God through that same Word. God's Word - Be - permeating all that exists, or it simply would not exist. And as all that exists journeys to and from God - it journeys by the power of that very Word - Be.  Jesus is also called the word of God in the Qu'ran ?
 
Like God says to Jesus when he is created in Qu'ran - "Be" and he was.
 
THROUGH Isa - the power of God is made manifest in the creation of a clay bird and giving it life.
 
What is the symbolism of this for you Minuteman ? It must symbolise something in your mind.
 
There is one thing about ignorance - for all of us. If we don't know - have not seriously studied or understood what another 'faith' truly professes to believe - then we need to be careful in making blanket statements about what it is, in our ignorance we believe they may or may not believe. If you get my drift.
 
I am not trying to 'prove' anything cause I can't prove anything. Neither can anyone else here.
 
God bless
 
K
 
If I may jump in to address a few things here?
If I existed before begining my life here on this earth then Jesus (pbuh) also existed.
But if you mean, like the Christian belief, that Jesus was before anything else was created, and if we also hypothetically believe for the moment that he always was there, I wounder why Moses, or Abrham never mentioned such a important part of their belief, as they are on the same note in the Bible and considered to be believers. I wonder how they missed what/who  was  "Jesus".
We don't hate the words of John, which claims Jesus to be God. In fact it probably be Jesus who hated those word surely, when he said in the same book: why do you call me good, none is good, but God. Or, that Father is greatrer than I. Or I can of myself do nothing, or for I return to my God and your God.
 
The irony for a Bible follower is that both those claims, of Jesus being a God, and Jesus having a God are bunched up some times just a flip of a page away in the same book.  So are we told to resort to the mystry in faith, or do we have a better, solid, and more truthfull choice if we only depend on the Bible for answers?
 
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 07 October 2008 at 3:00pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Gulliver
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Quote Gulliver Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2008 at 3:32pm
"The irony for a Bible follower is that both those claims, of Jesus being a God, and Jesus having a God are bunched up some times just a flip of a page away in the same book.  So are we told to resort to the mystry in faith, or do we have a better, solid, and more truthfull choice if we only depend on the Bible for answers?"
 
I can say the same of you with the Qu'ran. It's a matter of faith - 'cause all your 'logic' can't prove a thing Hasan- certainly not to me. I am not as well read as you all seem to be on these texts, so not qualified to argue as logically as you try to. I'm a hearty type. I try and see commonalities in both expressions of faith. I look to the human being before anything else - what is real, and does not depend on faith to believe it. Then I look to see the 'fruits' of the professed 'faith' in the believer - and see that as evidence of the reality of 'God' in the life of the believer.   "By their fruits you shall know them."  :-) I bet you have a lovely bunch of coconuts.  LOL  I am kidding. It's a song and a coconut is a fruit. LOL I coudn't resist.
 
Try and see with your heart 'stead of your head some times Hasan. I was not really talking about Jesus being God or not.
 
I was thinking to myself that it seemed that the Qu'ran and bible use similar concepts - Word. Be. Jesus.  Did God just suddenly decide to create each of us at a point in 'time' - or was that always part of the great plan - way back when, in the beginning ?
 
In the beginning was the Word (Be) and the Word (Be) was with God, and the Word was God - being part of God - His very own Word - 'Be' that called all into existence and is maintained in existence by that very Word of God - 'Be'.
 
I am thinking abstract concept here rather than personality. Attribute - manifestation perhaps of the Creator. Did God speak the Word - 'Be' for all to exist ?
 
Did he say to you 'be,' and give me a slap on the clay jaw and say 'wake up you, it's time to exist ! ' ? ;-)
 
I speak about Christianity, what I know of it Hasan cause it's what I was raised with. I knew nothing of Islam till after Christmas last year. I am not trying or seeking to prove anything - one way or the other, 'cause I know that none of us can prove anything. Only in death - when the veil is brought down will we know for real what we hope for now through faith.
 
It's a matter of faith for everyone on this forum who professes to believe whatever they believe. It's all part of that great 'test' - that thing called 'faith'.
 
It's just interesting to get different perspectives on things and see if there is any common ground.
 
God bless :-)
 
 
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Mansoor_ali
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2008 at 11:54am

 CHALLENGE TO TRINITARIAN

 

1-Can you bring me the Passage where Jesus says I am God

2-Can you bring me the verse where Jesus said God is three in One

3-Can you bring me the verse where Jesus claims to have dual natures i.e. fully man and fully God


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Quote rememberallah Replybullet Posted: 24 October 2012 at 11:54pm
An apostate is not to be killed......it is a lie that has entered islam.....muslims are blindly following it without researching.
The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.
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