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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
Message Icon Topic: Leaving Islam Punishable by Death?... Post Reply Post New Topic
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2008 at 10:25pm
 
 Angel has sent a long post supporting that Apostate should be put to death. That is the opinion of the scholars in Islam. First, may I define an apostate please:
 
 Apostate is not a one whom people make apostate. He/she is the one who had accepted Islam and after sometime, he/she found something wrong with Islam and denounced his faith in Islam. He/she said good-bye to Islam by own free will. Not that muslims due to a difference of opinion on any Islamic matter tried to make him or call him an apostate.
 
 In the Quran, it is written, "Wa man yartadda minkum..." That means whoever denounced Islam and went back...
 
 An apostate himself/herself says that he/she is dissatisfied with Islam and does not want to remain a believer in Islam. That is apostate. I had to clarify this point because it is a common practcie amongst the muslims of today to try to call normal muslims as apostates due to difference of opinion, while that person is not denouncing Islam.
 
 (More in next post)


Edited by minuteman - 16 September 2008 at 10:29pm
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2008 at 10:53pm
 
 (Continued).....
 
 From the post of angel:

"
The apostate is not to be put to death immediately after he falls into apostasy, especially if his apostasy happens because of some doubt that arose. Rather he should be asked to repent and he should be offered the opportunity to return to Islam and resolve his doubts, if he has any doubts. Then if he persists in his apostasy after that, he is to be put to death.

Ibn Qudaamah said in al-Mughni, 9/18:
The apostate should not be put to death until he has been asked to repent three times. This is the view of the majority of scholars, including ‘Umar, ‘Ali, ‘Ata’, al-Nakhaii, Maalik, al-Thawri, al-Awzaa’i, Ishaaq and others. Because apostasy comes about because of doubt, and cannot be dispelled in an instant. Time should be allowed for the person to rethink the matter, and the best length of time is three days.
End quote.

The saheeh Sunnah indicates that it is essential to put the apostate to death.

Al-Bukhaari (6922) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever changes his religion, put him to death."

The above is a part of the post of angel.. Few rules have been formulated above. May I ask who formulated those rules? From where did they try to make those rules.Surely they are the byproduct of some thought process and as such not valid

The whole matter is resting on the Hadith only and there is not a word from the Quran. Also a Hadith from Bukhari , "Whoever changes his religion, put him to death." That is funny. It may be a hindu or a christian or a muslim. The prophet did not specify and said that whoever changes his religion, put him to death. Surprising that such a careless statement is attributed to the prophet s.a.w.s. It is not possible. It is very vague and very serious statement. cannot be true at its face value.

Also, who advised that the apostate is not to be put to death immediately? But he is to be aksed to repent. Who taught that valuable sentence?

Please rememeber that Muslims have not believed in scholars but they have believed in Allah and his messenger. The religion has gone through many turmoil soon after the passing away of the guided Caliphs. Then there was a factory of hadith invention. Imam Bukhari had remembered about 100,000 incorrect Hadith.

Surely,the scholars of the school of thought must have had some problem which they were solving by putting the apostate to death. We cannot understand what lead them to such a decision. But we know that Hadith cannot issue any serious order of Capital punishment on its own. The practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. depended on the revelation in the Quran.

He lived a life exactly in the light of the Quran. If there was no order in the Quran to put an apostate to death then why he would do that on his own? Niether an apostate is to be put to death nor an adulterer is to be stoned to death. That should be the order of the day.

On the other hand, forgetting about all non Muslims, may I ask my Muslim friends only about putting the apostates to death, forgetting what the scholars have said, what do they feel about this teaching that any one who goes back on Islam, he should be killed. What do they feel about this order. Is it true that there is no compulsion in the matter of the religion ( Way of life). Killing a person for disbelieving after believing, will it not be a compulsion?



Edited by minuteman - 16 September 2008 at 10:57pm
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H3OO
 
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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2008 at 11:11pm
Ronn Web SAID : That's one of the drawbacks of writing too much.  People tend to miss your main point.

I said:
writing too much? what ever ive mentioned all are main points. i have tried to give no. of reasons just to make my case stronger that the hadith is invalid.
so that there is not a bit of doubt left. and thats why
i have divided all those arguments in 6/7 posts and  not just given all the data in 1 long posts so that  it is easily digestible.

secondly if there were only one invalid point against the hadith one couldve argued but since no. of things go against it so there is no argument that hadith is still valid unless u have problems with those reasons which u can point out.

i also hope u have been actually read all my post and not discarded any as being too much or irrelevant but if u haven't ill ask u to read all my posts  otherwise there  is no point in discussing.

continues...



Edited by H3OO - 17 September 2008 at 12:15am
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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2008 at 11:15pm
Ronn Web

i see u are very much convinced/ satisfied with arguments provided by angel though s/he  didnt provide anything from quran and the hadith she provided have already been discussed here but since it reflected a bad image on islam it seems like u didnt have any problem with those arguments but in my case u have still got some questions.

My only point of stating this is that i hope u are reading without any bias/prejudice against islam or u'll not get to the real point and accept only the negative version of islam.

& remember dont accept anything until u dont find it clearly from quran or authenticated hadith be it be any scholar. bcz these scholars are not prophets but ordinary humans like us.

if i were to believe in these scholars i wouldve left islam long way by now but Allah gave me the sense and through logic, reasoning i was able to get to the real interpretation of islam as ur sig says Religion is intellect.




continues....



Edited by H3OO - 16 September 2008 at 11:20pm
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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 12:05am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

[quote=H3OO]

Can you give me just one reason why that particular hadith might not be considered authentic?  By "external" I mean a reason not based on the internal content, i.e., not based on the words of the hadith itself.  My point is that if we need to rely on the content of a hadith to validate its authenticity, then how can we rely on its authenticity to validate its content?  Isn't that a circular argument?



Sir I have stated the case  quite clearly, just read my posts again (but with an open mind and without any bias against islam) and u'll find those external reasons (read the post 2,3,4 of page 2 of this thread).

Also regarding the point u raised that God is silent, regarding which i gave my explanation which sounds  pretty much logical,  I'll like to add to that that in quran punishment of different sins is clearly mentioned such as adultery, theft, false accusation of extramarital sex but on this subject matter, Gods is silent which is enough to convince that there is no punishment or otherwise he wouldve stated.

Now THE burden is on ur side to prove  that clear punishment is stated in quran or that there is a authenticated hadith available.


Edited by H3OO - 17 September 2008 at 12:26am
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 6:49pm

Originally posted by H3OO

writing too much? what ever ive mentioned all are main points. i have tried to give no. of reasons just to make my case stronger that the hadith is invalid.

This afternoon on the bus home from work I spent more than twenty minutes reading messages from you.  Then I had to stop.  I'm sorry, but that's all the time I could afford.  There are plenty of other members here, lots of messages I'd like to read and respond to, and for that matter, lots of other things I should be doing besides surfing the 'Net.  (At least that's what my wife keeps telling me.Smile)  I try to at least skim every message addressed to me, but the more you write, the less carefully I read. I wish it were otherwise, but that's just reality.

i see u are very much convinced/ satisfied with arguments provided by angel though s/he  didnt provide anything from quran and the hadith she provided have already been discussed here but since it reflected a bad image on islam it seems like u didnt have any problem with those arguments but in my case u have still got some questions.

You misunderstand me.  Angel has presented a strong case that scholarly Muslim opinion is in favour of killing apostates, but I wouldn't say I am "convinced/satisfied".  It may be that others will offer equally strong rebuttals.  I await any responses from other Muslims with interest.

You also misunderstand me if you think that I am biased against Islam, or that I am out to prove any particular interpretation of Islam.  As the saying goes, "I have no dog in this race."  I am not a Muslim, so I cannot claim to "believe" either side of the debate.  The only sense in which I care about this issue is that I am concerned about the degree of hatred against Islam in the world, and fatwas threatening death to apostates don't help the situation.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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H3OO
 
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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 10:33pm
Ron webb said;
Angel has presented a strong case that scholarly Muslim opinion is in favour of killing apostates.

i said;
the only thing i'll like to add again is that dont accept anything from the scholarly Muslim unless they prove it from the quran and authenticated hadith, so the strong case u are talking about isnt strong bcz they've not proven anything from there (what they said is what they think themselves, totally illogical and against islamic teachings and practices of holy prophet [sa] as minute man also  described it very well.

i have given u enough proves regarding apostacy from quran and also the invalidity of the hadith.
take care


Edited by H3OO - 18 September 2008 at 1:41am
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Quote SilverArrow Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2008 at 12:41am
H3OO,

My question to you is this one:
- If that is the case this Hadith is not valid why still is part of the Hadith collection? Why is not taken out?

Please see the latest efforts of Muslim Theologians from Turkey to clean the Hadiths / Sunna of things that can not be verified by Qur'an.

All the best,
Alex

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