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Islam for non-Muslims
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Message Icon Topic: Leaving Islam Punishable by Death?... Post Reply Post New Topic
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H3OO
 
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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2008 at 10:45pm
Ron Webb

1st of all one thing needs to be made clear;

1.  The Word of God stands supreme.
2. This is followed by the actual practices of the Holy Prophet of Islam [sa]. This is known as sunnah.
 3. This is followed by hadith, the words reported to be those of the Holy Prophet[sa]


If the authenticity of the words of the Holy Prophet[sa] is established unquestionably, the words concerned are words put into the mouth of the Holy Prophetssa by God Almighty. Where there is no apparent contradiction between the word of the Holy Prophet[sa] and the Quran, the tradition may be accepted as authentic.

Whenever any so-called tradition attributed to the Holy Prophet of Islam[sa] contradicts any clear injunction of the Holy Quran, such a tradition is rejected as false and is not accepted as the word of the Holy Prophet[sa].

Another reliable method of investigating the credibility of a tradition is to study its internal evidence critically. If the contents of the tradition clash with the image of the Holy Prophet of Islam which has emerged from a study of his conduct and bearing throughout his life, then such a tradition would be rejected as a false attribution to the Holy Prophet[sa] or as being against the principles of logic and common sense.


CONTINUES....


Edited by H3OO - 14 September 2008 at 10:47pm
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H3OO
 
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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2008 at 11:02pm
Contradiction of the hadith u mentioned with the Holy Quran

It is not possible for a fair-minded person to reconcile the following verses of the Holy Quran with this tradition:

  • 2.57, 100, 109, 218, 257, 273
  • 3.21, 73, 86–92, 145
  • 4.83, 138, 139, 146
  • 5.55, 62, 91–3, 99–100
  • 6.67, 105–8, 126
  • 7.124–9
  • 9.11–14
  • 10.100–9
  • 13.41
  • 15.10
  • 16.83, 105–7, 126
  • 17.55
  • 18.30
  • 19.47
  • 20.72–4
  • 22.40
  • 24.55
  • 25.42–4
  • 26.117
  • 28.57
  • 29.19
  • 39.30–42
  • 40.26, 27
  • 42.7, 8, 48, 49
  • 47.26
  • 50.46
  • 51.57
  • 64.9–13
  • 66.7
  • 88.22–3

Holy Quran says

Whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the losers. How shall Allah guide a people who have disbelieved after having believed and who had borne witness that the Messenger is true and to him clear proofs had come? Allah guides not the wrongdoers. Of such the punishment is that on them shall be the curse of Allah and of angels and of men, all together, the reunder shall they abide. Their punishment shall not be lightened nor shall they be granted respite; except in the case of those who repent thereafter and amend. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Ever Merciful. Those who disbelieve after having believed, and then continue to advance in disbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted. Those are they who have gone utterly astray. From anyone of those who have disbelieved, and die while they are disbelievers, there shall not be accepted even an earth full of gold, though he offer it in ransom. For those there shall be a grievous punishment, and they shall have no helper. (3.86–92)

It is obvious from these verses that no punishment is to be inflicted by one man on another for apostasy. The words ‘thereunder shall they abide’ clearly refer to the life hereafter. By no stretch of imagination can any sane person interpret the words ‘curse of Allah’ to be a license to murder anyone whom he considers to be an apostate. No capital punishment is mentioned. If it had, according to the strict requirements of the law, the punishment would have been clearly defined, as in the case of all other hodud (punishments specifically prescribed in the Holy Quran). On the contrary, the Holy Quran mentions the possibility of repentance by such persons and subsequent forgiveness by God. How can anyone repent and atone for his sins in this world if he has been killed?


Holy Quran says

If thy Lord had enforced His Will, surely all those on the earth would have believed without exception. Will thou than take it upon thyself to force people to become believers? Except by Allah’s leave no one can believe and He will afflict with His wrath those who will not use their understanding. (10.100–1)

When God Himself does not force people to believe, who are we to raise the sword to force belief.

(This is a copy paste of  the words of a scholar).


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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2008 at 11:04pm
Other Verses from the Holy Quran on Apostasy

The Holy Quran says:

O ye who believe, whoso from among you turns back from his religion let him remember that in place of such a person, Allah will soon bring a people whom He will love and who will love Him, who will be kind and considerate towards the believers and firm and unyielding towards the disbelievers. They will strive hard in the cause of Allah and will not at all take to heart the reproaches of fault finders. That is Allah’s grace; He bestows it upon whosoever He pleases. Allah is the Lord of vast bounty, All-Knowing. (5.55)

Whoso disbelieves in Allah after he has believed, excepting the case of one who is forced to make a declaration of disbelief while his heart rests securely in faith, but one who opens his mind wide to disbelief; on him is Allah’s wrath and he shall have a grievous punishment. (16.107)

Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and thereafter go on increasing in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them, nor guide them to any way of deliverance. (4.138)

Muhammad is but a Messenger; of a surety, all Messengers before him have passed away. If then, he dies or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? He who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah a whit. Allah will certainly reward the grateful. (3.145)

No corporal punishment can be understood to have been mentioned by any stretch of imagination in the foregoing passages from the Holy Quran.

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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2008 at 2:13am
as posted before Quran says;

''Whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the losers. How shall Allah guide a people who have disbelieved after having believed and who had borne witness that the Messenger is true and to him clear proofs had come? Allah guides not the wrongdoers. Of such the punishment is that on them shall be the curse of Allah and of angels and of men, all together, the reunder shall they abide. Their punishment shall not be lightened nor shall they be granted respite; except in the case of those who repent thereafter and amend. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Ever Merciful. Those who disbelieve after having believed, and then continue to advance in disbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted. Those are they who have gone utterly astray. From anyone of those who have disbelieved, and die while they are disbelievers, there shall not be accepted even an earth full of gold, though he offer it in ransom. For those there shall be a grievous punishment, and they shall have no helper.'' (3.86–92)


even if we were to assume that the punishment of apostate is death from the above verse (eventhough it isnt so) but above verse clearly says that  the believer knew in his heart that the messenger is true but still intentionally  turned a disbeliever despite knowing the truth, so such is punishable to death,
so the question that comes to mind then is how the humans will find out  whats in the heart of the apostate. how they will know about his ill intentions that he knew the truth. Its Only Allah who knows the best whats in others heart, what their intentions are.

as Allah says in Quarn
Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation. and reason with them on the basis of that which is best. Thy Lord knows best those who have strayed away from His way; and He knows best those who are rightly guided.(16.126)

So its only in Gods hand to punish, no human can take this in their own hands or their will only be murder of the innocent.


Edited by H3OO - 15 September 2008 at 2:15am
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H3OO
 
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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2008 at 2:24am

Ikramah relates that he heard that some Zindeeqs were presented before Hazrat Ali whereupon he directed the burning alive of these people. Ibn Abbas stated that had it been him, he would not have ordered this because the Holy Prophetsa had said that the torment of the fire may only be decreed by God but the Prophetsa had also said, ‘Slay whosoever changes his religion


The contents of the above Hadith   are erroneous in several ways.


  1. A person of Hazrat Ali’s stature is presumed to be unaware of the fact that Islam categorically prohibits a person to be punished by fire.
  2. The words ‘slay whosoever changes his faith’ are so general that they can be interpreted in many ways. They can apply to men, women and children, whereas according to Imam Abu Hanifa and some other schools of jurisprudence, an apostate woman can never be slain.
  3. The Arabic word deen (religion) used in this tradition is a general word meaning any religion, not Islam specifically. Even the faith of idolaters is referred to as deen. (Sura Al-Kafiroon)
In the light of the general nature of the language used, how can one restrict the application of this tradition to a Muslim who renounces his faith? In strict legal terms, according to this tradition anyone who changes his religion, whatever that religion is, would have to be put to death. It would mean slaying the Jew who became a Christian, slaying the Christian who became a Muslim.

(a copy/paste of a scholars words)

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Quote H3OO Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2008 at 2:39am
another point that can be raised is that THE hadith states the narrator was Ikramah, so it also raises a question about the truthfulness/authenticity of the narrator. what he(Ikramah)  says are neither the words of God nor the prophet.
what he says doesnt necessarily means that this is what actually happened or this is what actually was said. and quranic verses, logic, common sense surely do go against  it.


Edited by H3OO - 15 September 2008 at 11:24pm
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2008 at 4:42am
 
 Ron Webb, you being an atheist, would not know much about any religion. You had written:
 
 
Where in the Quran or the hadith do you find that distinction?  Muhammad himself was unequivocal: "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." (Bukhari, volume 9, book 84, no. 57) http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html
 
 You have shown long lines from Bukhari V9 book 84. There was mostly unrelated matter in those Hadith. We do not need any Hadith about any apostates. Unless they murdered some one and ran away, there is no punishment for them.
 
 Also please know that an atheist is different to an apostate. There is no burden, no danger to any peaceful person for not believing.
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2008 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by H3OO

Whenever any so-called tradition attributed to the Holy Prophet of Islam[sa] contradicts any clear injunction of the Holy Quran, such a tradition is rejected as false and is not accepted as the word of the Holy Prophet[sa].
I don't see anything in the Quran that directly contradicts the hadith I quoted (silence is not contradiction); but if the consensus is that it is not authentic, I'll take your word for it.
 
I wonder, though, if there is any other (external) reason to believe that the hadith is not authentic, aside from the alleged contradiction.  If the hadith was recorded by otherwise reliable sources and transmitted via reputable scholars, doesn't that call into question the reliability and authority of all hadith?
 
Originally posted by minuteman

 Ron Webb, you being an atheist, would not know much about any religion.
Smile That is ironic, since it was my study of various religions that made me an atheist.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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