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moekalsoon
 
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Quote moekalsoon Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2009 at 7:05pm
one requires either wudu or ghusl to do all acts of worship, however they 2 levels of purification, the latter is needed for greater impurities which are usually associated with the private parts of males and females whilst wudu is a another form of purification which allows a person to be in a state of purity for salah or inorder to read the quran. HENCE both are forms of purification. they both come under the umbrella of the forms of purification which include, wudu, ghusul and tayamum.

there are 4 schools of thought, the Maliki, Shafii, Hanafi and Hanbali,

imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal is seen as the initiator and greatest contributor to the hanbali school of thought., even though they were all students of one another their views varied and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had fortold us this and he continued to say that their differences are all correct and because of this they are a Rahma (mercy) to muslims.

so under what authority do you have to claim that he is wrong if the prophet Pbuh said that neither are wrong, and He (pbuh) also taught us if we should come across 2 paths we should choose the easier path, aslong as this path is within the limits of the religion. and i doubt imam Ahmad bin Hanbal would teach anything that goes beyond the bounds of islam.

i have not branded anyone with any term, you yourself are doing the same thing that has caused us to hate the western media, you are jumping to conclusions forgetting the context and trying to vilify and incriminate me inorder to make seem like a person without understanding of this topic. just to let you know i have done countless hours of study on this topic asked different scholars on this topic and have searched long and hard to find all the information that one needs to come to an informed decision. if you can compete with that then by all means the world is wide and open, you can do what ever you want for i have no control over you however notice that Allah is the one that sees all and his eyes do not sleep and he knows what is in your heart. you have offended me infront of the world so that you can push a bias point of view and i am your muslim brother, all i can say is may Allah have mercy on you and forgive you.

salamz.
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abosait
 
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Quote abosait Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2009 at 9:36am
Originally posted by moekalsoon

one requires either wudu or ghusl to do all acts of worship, however they 2 levels of purification, the latter is needed for greater impurities which are usually associated with the private parts of males and females ................
 
Why only the latter?
 
Wudhu is also associatedwith private parts.
 
Please try to understand the difference brtween the two and you will come o know that  all excretions other than sexual discharges necesitate minor purification. That is why I said your contention was wrong.
 
Originally posted by moekalsoon

..................Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had fortold us this and he continued to say that their differences are all correct and because of this they are a Rahma (mercy) to muslims...................

please povide the reference such as hadith no, narrator etc. and the Sahih in which the above infomation is recorded if you are truthful in your claim.
 
As far as I know the prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam did not mention only 4 sects but more than that. .

There are many groups who claim that they represent Islaam. However, when their teachings are investigated one finds that they are far from the straight path which was so clearly defined for us by the Messenger (S).

This should not come to us as a surprise because the Messenger of Allaah (Saws) predicted that his Ummah would divide into many sects. He (Saws) said:

The Jews divided into seventy-one sects, and the Christians divided into seventy-two sects. My Ummah will divide into seventy-three different sects, all of which will be in the Fire except one: Those who are on the like of what I and my companions are on at this time. [at-Tirmidhi; hasan
Originally posted by moekalsoon

.........and He (pbuh) also taught us if we should come across 2 paths we should choose the easier path, aslong as this path is within the limits of the religion..... .
 
Again no proof for your statement.
 
Surah An-Nisa 4:59.
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلاً (4:59)
  • 4:59 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Allah said,

[فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِى شَىْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ]

((And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger).

Mujahid and several others among the Salaf said that the Ayah means, "(Refer) to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger.'' This is a command from Allah that whatever areas the people dispute about, whether major or minor areas of the religion, they are required to refer to the Qur'an and Sunnah for judgment concerning these disputes. In another Ayah, Allah said,

[وَمَا اخْتَلَفْتُمْ فِيهِ مِن شَىْءٍ فَحُكْمُهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ]

(And in whatsoever you differ, the decision thereof is with Allah).

Therefore, whatever the Book and Sunnah decide and testify to the truth of, then it, is the plain truth. What is beyond truth, save falsehood This is why Allah said, u

[إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ]

(if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day.)

meaning, refer the disputes and conflicts that arise between you to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger for judgment. Allah's statement,

[إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ]

(if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. )

indicates that those who do not refer to the Book and Sunnah for judgment in their disputes, are not believers in Allah or the Last Day. Allah said,

[ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ]

(That is better)

meaning, referring to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger for judgment in various disputes is better,

Originally posted by moekalsoon

.....i have done countless hours of study on this topic asked different scholars on this topic and have searched long and hard ....................
 
Surprising it is that the different scholars you consulted have not shown you the above Verses during the course of your search.
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moekalsoon
 
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Quote moekalsoon Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2009 at 12:45am
Umar saw how the Prophet , whenever he was faced with a choice between two things, would always choose the easier of the two;

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 760: (sahih bukhari)
Narrated 'Aisha:

Whenever Allah's Apostle was given the choice of one of two matters, he would choose the easier of the two, as long as it was not sinful to do so, but if it was sinful to do so, he would not approach it. Allah's Apostle never took revenge (over anybody) for his own sake but (he did) only when Allah's Legal Bindings were outraged in which case he would take revenge for Allah's Sake.

these are my proofs that you asked for.

i am not going to bother continuing this conversation with you as i have noticed that you are most likely of the extreme salafi sect. i still love you for the sake of allah but i know regardless of how much evidence i bring forward and regardless of how much i make things clear to you you will never accept my thoughts and opinions on this topic and will always find a way to conceal the truth. a big example is you degrading the 4 mathahib, some of the greatest scholars that ever existed into the ranks of sects, i dont follow no sect, i follow the orders of allah set out in the quran and i follow the sunnah of the prophet muhammad PBUH, i utilize and draw my knowledge of the hadith and shariah explained by the 4 mathahibs as a guide to how islam should be and how i as a muslim should act. the prophet PBUH said islam is moderate so be moderate in all you affairs, what you are doing brother is going beyond what the prophet pbuh has set out for man, you are going to extremes, to an extent where you have insulted the scholars of islam. you have pushed the bounds with your ideologies, a little wake up call brother, regardless of how much you study no matter how much you argue and no matter how much you try to conceal the truth, the truth is out there and you will never succeed and by Allahs will, he knows what your intentions are, you will never amount to the toe nail of one of these 4 great scholars whom you have disrespected and dishonored.

may allah have mercy on you and me and may allah forgive us all, if i have offended you brother i ask for your forgiveness in front of allah the all mighty.

salams
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abosait
 
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Quote abosait Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2009 at 10:34am
Originally posted by moekalsoon


.........., as long as it was not sinful to do so, but if it was sinful to do so, he would not approach it. ..................
 
Now you have come out with the Hadith in full. If you have read the highlighted portion, which you conveniently eleminated in your earlier Post you would not recomend the sinful act of masterbation to save oneself from fornication.
 
Originally posted by moekalsoon

..............and will always find a way to conceal the truth..................
 
Isnt it you that concealed the Truth in the above Hadith?
 
And in your own words,
 
Originally posted by moekalsoon

.............. and no matter how much you try to conceal the truth, the truth is out there and you will never succeed and by Allahs will, ..........


Edited by abosait - 18 April 2009 at 10:35am
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2009 at 11:53am
Originally posted by abosait

Originally posted by moekalsoon


.........., as long as it was not sinful to do so, but if it was sinful to do so, he would not approach it. ..................
 
Now you have come out with the Hadith in full. If you have read the highlighted portion, which you conveniently eleminated in your earlier Post you would not recomend the sinful act of masterbation to save oneself from fornication.
 
And where does it say that it is sinful to do so?
Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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abosait
 
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Quote abosait Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2009 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

 
And where does it say that it is sinful to do so?
 
It has already been explained here on page #1. of this thread. Here is a copy:
Originally posted by abudawud

Sharing with all bros.. .........
 

Masturbation is Haraam (unlawful).

This is the ruling of the four Madhaahibs viz. Maliki, Shafe, Hanafee and
one riwaayah (narration) from Imaam Hanbalee. They have drawn their
conclusions from the following proofs:

PROOFS FROM THE QURN
* Allah Tala says:
'And those who guard their private parts from their wives and those
(slave-girls) which their right-hands own - so there is no blame upon them.
Then whoever seeks beyond that (which is lawful), they are the
transgressors.

The intended meaning of these Aayat is clear. Allah Tala has praised the
believers for guarding their private parts from that which He has made
forbidden for them. Allah has permitted them to approach their wives and
slave-girls. Thereafter, these words of Allah Tala follow: 'Whoever seeks
beyond that which is lawful are oppressors who overstep from Halaal
(permitted) towards Haraam (prohibited).

Hafiz ibn Katheer (RA) writes Imaam Shaafe (RA) and those who have agreed
with him have concluded that masturbation is Haraam from this Aayat.' He
says: 'Masturbation is excluded from these two types which Allah has made
Halaal, viz. wives and slave-girls.

* Similarly, these Fuqahaa (Jurists) have drawn their conclusion from the
following Aayat:
'And those who do not find the means to marry should remain chaste until
Allah gives them resources by His grace.'

This Aayat shows masturbation to be Haraam because of two reasons: Firstly,
in this Aayat Allah Tala has given the command of chastity and, according
to the principles of Fiqh, a command (an imperative) denotes Wujoob
(incumbency, obligation). Hence to remain chaste is Waajib (compulsory) and
wherever chastity is Waajib it becomes Waajib to refrain from that which is
contrary to it, for example, adultery, fornication, and sodomy. This is due
to the fact that obligatory chastity will not materialise except by complete
refrainment from all that which is contrary to chastity.
Secondly: in this Aayat, Allah Tala has made chastity obligatory on those
who are unable to execute the command of Nikah. Here Allah Tala has not
determined any connection or link between marriage and chastity. Hence, this
demands that masturbation should be Haraam. And if assuming, it was
permissible, then Allah Tala would have mentioned it at this point because
this was the place of explanation. The silence maintaned by Allah Tala with
regard to it at a place which requires its explanation, denotes that
masturbation is Haraam.

Imaam Qurtubi (RA) has written in the Tafseer of this Aayat: 'And when Allah
Tala has not determined any order between Nikah and chastity, then this
shows that besides these two, everything else is Haraam. However, this
Hurmat (unlawfulness) does not include slave-girls because another command
of the Qurn makes them Mubaah (permissible), viz.
'That which the right-hands earn (i.e. slave-girls).' Hence, in this manner
an addition of slave-girl has come. Masturbation, however still remains
Haraam.
'Those who seek beyond this (i.e. wives and slave-girls) are transgressors.'
(Marij 31)

Under the Tafseer of this Aayat, Qaadhi Thanaullah Paani Patti writes:
'Imaam Baghawi has deduced from this Aayat that masturbation is Haraam.'

PROOFS FROM AHAADITH
* Similarly, the Fuqahaa have drawn their conclusion from a Hadith reported
by Abdullah bin Masod (Radhiallaahu nhu) in Bukhari and Muslim. He reports
that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu layhi Wasallam) said, 'O group of youth!
Whoever from among you can marry should do so because it keeps the gaze low
and it protects the private parts. And he who cannot marry should make it
compulsory upon himself to fast because it breaks lust.'
Nabi (Sallallaahu layhi Wasallam) directed the person who is incapable of
bearing the burden on Nikah towards Sawm (fasting). If assuming,
masturbation was permissible, Rasulullah (Sallallaahu layhi Wasallam) would
have mentioned it at this point. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu layhi Wasallam)
however maintained silence. Hence, this indicates that masturbation is
Haraam because silence at the place of explanation gives the benefit of
restriction.

* Some of the Fuqahaa have drawn their conclusion from a narration reported
by Hasan bin Arfah that Nabi (Sallallaahu layhi Wasallam) said, 'Seven
persons are such that Allah will not look at them on the Day of Qiyaamat nor
will He purify them nor will He include them among the learned and Allah
will enter them into Jahannam. They will enter Jahannam first except for
those who repent. As those who repent Allah will accept their repentance.

1. A person who masturbates.
2. A person who performs the act of sodomy.
3. The person upon whom the act of sodomy is performed.
4. A perpetual drunkard.
5. The person who hits his parents so much that they appeal for help.
6. The person who harms his neighbours so much so that they curse him.
7. The person who commits adultery with his neighbour's wife. (Ibn Katheer
vol. 5 p. 458)

Hadhrat Anas (Radhiallaahu nhu) narrates that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu
layhi Wasallam) said, 'The person who performs Nikah with his hands (i.e.
masturbates) is cursed. (Tafseer Mazhari vol. 12 p. 94)

SAYINGS OF OUR PIOUS PREDECESSORS WITH REGARD TO MASTURBATION
* Saed bin Jubayr (Radhiallaahu nhu) narrates that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu
layhi Wasallam) said, 'Allah Tala will inflict a punishment on a group of
people because they played with their private parts.'
* Attaa (RA) says, 'Some people will be resurrected in such a condition that
their hands will be pregnant, I think they are those who masturbate.'

And Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

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Quote moekalsoon Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2009 at 7:18pm
* Some of the Fuqahaa have drawn their conclusion from a narration reported
by Hasan bin Arfah that Nabi (Sallallaahu layhi Wasallam) said, 'Seven
persons are such that Allah will not look at them on the Day of Qiyaamat nor
will He purify them nor will He include them among the learned and Allah
will enter them into Jahannam. They will enter Jahannam first except for
those who repent. As those who repent Allah will accept their repentance.

1. A person who masturbates.
2. A person who performs the act of sodomy.
3. The person upon whom the act of sodomy is performed.
4. A perpetual drunkard.
5. The person who hits his parents so much that they appeal for help.
6. The person who harms his neighbours so much so that they curse him.
7. The person who commits adultery with his neighbour's wife. (Ibn Katheer
vol. 5 p. 458)

Hadhrat Anas (Radhiallaahu nhu) narrates that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu
layhi Wasallam) said, 'The person who performs Nikah with his hands (i.e.
masturbates) is cursed. (Tafseer Mazhari vol. 12 p. 94)


according to the majority of ulammar these hadith are weak and thus can not be taken form. if it wasnt the case, and these hadith were sahih, then i doubt that great scholars like Al qradwai would not have known these hadith when they released their fatwa in the first post that i released. also i have concealed nothing, my words have not been included in any of the hadith as i know that the one who changes a hadith or quranic verse and claims that it is from allah and his messenger have a great punishment, so why would i put myself in such a situation, the words are there just as they are in the sahih bukhari books, so dont go around and claim that i am trying to conceal the truth. as allah is my witness i have not concealed anything that was in the soucre that i got the hadith from.

salams,

p.s brother i am not going to argue with you anymore, it is a waste of time and it is creating hate in my heart which i dont want, allah will judge between us on the day of judgement.

salams
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2009 at 7:48pm

Originally posted by abosait

It has already been explained here on page #1. of this thread.

Yes, I read that six months ago.  I asked at that time what masturbation has to do with chastity and got no answer.

In the normal sense of the word (at least in English), "chastity" refers to refraining from sexual relationships with others, not to actions of individuals alone and in private.  The quotations offered from the Quran seem to support that.  Moreover, the potential risks of unchaste behaviour (pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, social disorder) do not apply to masturbation.

It seems to me that masturbation is a healthy alternative to preserve chastity, especially for young men (maybe women too) who do not have a legitimate sexual partner.  Where in the Quran or in the Hadith is it said that masturbation is unchaste?
Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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