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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 11:54am
Plz w8 and dont write anything...as there is more to come...i have not done yet....
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 1:30pm
 
  asda, you are advising me to read the history. Do you think that I am unaware of the history of the Ummah? Surely not. But I will not go to abiased history which youhave been reading. I also know that most of the historians were Shias.
 
 Alo many of your Shias had the ample time to invent false Ahadith and put them in the books of the general Muslims, while remaining under cover. This is a well known fact.
 
 Every where a question is asked, you can reply in one line but you are calling to open another thread. Why? When the simple answer can be given in few words. You have justified your mourning in the open streets and Bazaars of the major cities to gather more recruits into Shia system. What for re you compalining. Is Yazeed here now? Do you think we are Yazeed? No. That mourning is just a show piece to gather more people to your clan.  It is totally illegal. Islam does not allow it.
 
 Then you jumped to Hazrat Musa and that his people discarded him. Do not apply that to our prophet. No one discarded our prophet s.a.w.s.
 
 Then you had the courage to malign Hazrat Umar during Hudaibia that he was angry. So were many other Sahabah. But Hazrat Umar did the Baya'ay Ridhwan under the tree. And Allah gave certificate of goodness to all who did the baya'at. But you seem to deny that too.
 
 Then you are in trouble about Uhud also. Did the prophet abuse any one for that. And you have no right to do so. But you people are making up false history. You have made up inumerable stories to malign the senior Companions of the prophet and to give uplift to the children of Ali. That is not justified. You cannot have it greased on both sides, i.e. downplaying one pious group and uplifting another doubtful group who had no part in the establishment of Islam, no money, no conversions, no fights or battles, only babies.
 
 Hazart Ali was much too young to do anything. He did not have anything even for his marriage. He could not give anything in the way of Allah. Let us not deal with these things. But since you are keeping the game of Yazeed alive, then there will be discussions about the weakness of the other side too. That only for your information. Otherwise you know that Sunnis do not hate or disrespect any of the ahle Bait Ali. r.a.
 
 Your saying that Hazart Ali did not give Bay'at to Hazrat Uthman is a balatant lie. Perhaps next time you will say that he did not give Bay'at to Abubakr and Umar too. You want to prove that Ali had no knowledge of religion or Quran? You know very well verse 24:55 which states that when Khilafat is established (And Allah has promised that He will establish it) then any one who will oppose it or differ with it, he will be a faasiq. So you want to prove that Hazrat Ali was a Faasiq? have a heart please.
 
 Already your beliefs are bordering upon Munafiqat. There are two types of enemies of Islam. 1. Munafiq who remain within the fold of Islam and try to cause maximum damage.   2. The Kaafir, who sit outside Islam and try to fight and oppose Islam.
 
 You belong to number one category, if you think seriously about it. I have informed you to be careful. Then it is upto you. Do as you like.  mm


Edited by minuteman - 17 September 2008 at 1:53pm
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 3:40pm
well well...i am still not done yet man....i dont knw y do they take time to approve my one line....please read the post above u..(if it has been approved)

go back and read the line where u say"no one discarded our Prophet (a.s)"...i have already proved to u...even if they did...that does not mean that he dint do his work properly...

infact ure post have proved nothing.....u know u cant defend them....that is y u dont look deep into history...plz bro...stop the rigidity...and do some research...if u have already done....then please come up with gud answers...

Imam ALi (a.s) dint do bayah of Umar and Abu Bakr...
that can be seen during the selection of Uthman....i would again advise u not to boil up...and stay calm....and read history to open ure eyes....

ure hatred comes between acceptance....as u already know that u dont have any answer to a single question i have given.....if u r so right...then i challenge u to think with an open mind...and just not reject the facts just because something different is being taught to u all ure life......infact i have been brave enough to answer every single question....while u hav ignored them....inshallah a lot of lies will be exposed to u in my upcomming posts.....

btw..i hav called upon to open another threads so that we dont go off topic...

uhud was the time when one cud just imagine if the prophet (a.s) was in trouble wat would happen.. u also know that true friends are those who are with a person even during bad times.....



i have already told u...khilafat was established...but like H.Harun khilafat people betrayed him...

chalo....if i accept that khilafat was established by Allah (s.w.t) then the khilafat of Banu Umayyah and Banu Abbas did exist as well....and u surly know wat type of people became rulers....so if khilafat was established by Allah (s.w.t) is the worldly one (mazallah) as u say then what about the acts of the caliphs that followed followed Imam Hassan (a.s)...atleast as u say, khilafat to banu umayyah was transferred in peaceful way...so were banu umayyah calph of Allah (s.w.t) (maazalllah)???dont u see...this is an established khilafat??.....
and the banu Abbas took over....now y dont u say that Allah (s.w.t) made them win over banu umayyah...and its his khilafat???(maazallah)...as now thier khilafat was established..


Already your beliefs are bordering upon Munafiqat.


u know that wont make me angry on u....so dont test my patience...inshallah u have already seen it...May Allah (s.w.t) help u...

Edited by asda - 17 September 2008 at 4:19pm
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 3:46pm
Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem

now i will look into the article...as i have already mentioned that i knw the source of this article...and that has helped me a lot in doing my research to collect a reasonable answer...inshallah the writer of this article will be exposed in his faulty quotes and inshallah i will show how he is misleading the ahlus sunnah....



Originally posted by seekshidayath

Now coming to the hadith u had been repeating
 

Before going into it, let me help you learn a small but important point. A hadith can be well understood, infact can know it in real when, you go thru its context. Welll, here is a hadith from your own source  of ahle byth.

 

“Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry.”

 

Well, this is the hadith na, which you quoted. Now, read its explanation. Let's read it in its context

 

This incident is narrated by the esteemed founding father of Shia theology, Ibn Babaveh Al-Qummi, better known as Al-Sadooq. In his book, Al-Sadooq relayed the following narration on the authority of Imam Jafar as-Sadiq. This narration is also available on Al-Shia.com:

 

Translation: It is narrated on the authority of Abu Abdullah Jafar Al-Sadiq: A miserable of the miserables came to Fatima, the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, and said to her: “Did you not know that Ali proposed to marry (Khataba) the daughter of Abu Jahl?” She said: “Is it true what you say? He said three times: “What I say is true.” Jealousy entered into her (heart) to an extent she could not control, for Allah has ordained that women be jealous and that men perform Jihad, and He has made the reward of the patient (woman) similar to that of the Murabit and Muhajir in the way of Allah.

 

He said: And Fatima’s anguish became severe and she remained thinking about it until night time…she moved to her father’s residence. Ali came to his residence and did not see Fatima and his anguish increased and became great on him, even though he did not know what happened, and he was ashamed to call her from her father’s house so he went to the Masjid and prayed as much as Allah willed, and he collected some of the sand in the Masjid and laid on it.

 

When the Prophet saw how sad and anguished Fatima was, he poured water over himself and wore his clothes and entered the Masjid. He kept praying, making Rukoo and Sujood, and after every time he completed two Raka he made Du’a that Allah remove what Fatima had of sadness and anguish because he left her turning over and breathing heavily. When the Prophet saw that she could not sleep and could not rest he said: “O daughter, rise!” So she rose and the Prophet carried Al-Hassan and she carried Al-Hussain and took hold of Umm Kulthoom’s hand until they reached Ali (AS) while he was sleeping.

 

The Prophet put his foot on Ali, pinched him, and said: “Rise Abu Turab! You have disturbed many a resting person. Call for me Abu Bakr from his house and Umar from his Majlis and Talha.” So Ali went and got them from their houses and they gathered around the Messenger of Allah.

 

The Messenger of Allah then said: “O Ali! Do you not know that Fatima is a piece of me and I am from her. Whoever disturbs her, disturbs me and whoever disturbs me has disturbed Allah, and whoever disturbs her after my death then as if he has disturbed her in my lifetime and whoever disturbed her in my lifetime then as if he has disturbed her after my death.”

 

(source: Ibn Babveh Al Qummi’s “Elal Al-Sharae’”, pp.185-186, Al-Najaf Print; also narrated in Majlisi “Bihar” 43/201-202)


Well according to shia belief, this event never took place...for many reasons which will be discribed...
as u know, every hadith has to be tested from quran, ilme rijal and so on.....inshallah i will look into the flaws of the hadith and then i will look into the fact that even if i accept that hadith to be true, the event if analysed, does not fit ones common sence...may Allah (s.w.t) help me with my task...

the writer of the article is over smart...he thot only sunnis will read his article...and blindly accept his work.....
1st we will look into tho book Elal-Asharae' written by sheikh Saduq (r.a)








i think u know urdu...and i hope u can read the beautiful language....in the 1st image i have underlined the last narrators name....which is ABU HURAYRA and not Imam Jafar e Sadiq (a.s) as the writer claims....and secondly we dont take from abu hurayra, beacuse he is not considered to be a reliable person one reason is given here: http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abyhurayrank3.jpg..(i dint want to waste space or go off topic)

and now look at the second image...(its the next page)...i have surrounded the words by THE WRITER SHIEKH SADOOQ which says "Rivayat humaare nazdeek hargiz motabar aur Mustanid nahee hai"..this in sort means that he say.."the narration is not authentic and fabricated)...

well i am sure every published book has this note on this hadith...and the writer of the article either ignored that, thinking shias will blindly believe him or it was his mischiev which has been exposed...

infact if u read all the arabic texts...given in the article...no where it says its been narrated by Imam Jafar e Sadiq (a.s)....

now lets see the narration in Bihar Ul Anwar By allamah majlisi....look at the chain of narration (from the site ya-zahra.net)...[أبي ، عن سعد ، عن الحسن بن عرفة ، عن وكيع ، عن محمد بن إسرائيل ، عن أبي صالح ، عن أبي ذر رحمة الله >...as u can see there are 7 narrators till Abu Zarr...and Allamah majlisi was born in the Hijri year of 1024....well this hadith can only accepted if it is possible for all the narrators to live atleast around 125 years above or a bit less....since there is around 1014 year gap between Allamah Majlisi and Prophet Muhammad (a.s)!!!!!

since the al-shia link given there does not work..i cud not work on it...


 

This story is not only narrated by the Shia founding father Al-Qummi, but it is also narrated by Al-Majlisi in his book Jala Al-Eoyon. There are not many scholars of the Shia considered more authoratative than Al-Qummi and Al-Majlisi, and both narrate this story.

 

since the auther has given no quotations from Jala Al-Eoyon....his claims are worthless....

It was actually Ali  who had angered Fatima , and consequently, the Prophet  chastised him by saying that whoever angers Fatima  angers him. According to the Shia narration above, the Prophet  even “put his foot on Ali” and “pinched him.” Not only this, but the Prophet  rounded up some of the Sahabah in order to publically chastise Ali  on the matter. Hence, if the Shia would like to condemn Abu Bakr  for angering Fatima , then what about this incident in which Ali  does so? In fact, the very statement that the silly Shia use against us is in fact the same statement that was used by the Prophet  as a chastisement of Ali !

 

And this was not the only time that Ali angered Fatima . According to Shia sources, we see several other instances. On one occassion, she was angry with Ali  because she saw his head in the lap of a slave girl that was given to him as a gift. She even left him for awhile and went to her father’s house, which is something that females do when they are upset with their husbands or they are facing marital problems. This narration is available on the YaZahra.com, a reputable Shia website:


just because a website says it, and that website is just giving out a book ..we shud believe it???? inshallah in the next part of the reply i will see that even if i accept the narration... what are the flaws in it....
 


since i al still working on this...please dont post anything to divert attention....


Edited by asda - 17 September 2008 at 3:53pm
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 4:13pm
inshallah lets see and analyse the incident...
one of the translations of the books mentioned is:

Translation: Al-Qummi and Al-Majlisi narrated on the authority of Abu Thar: I migrated with Jafar ibn Abi Talib to Abyssynia. A slave girl worth 4,000 dirhams was given to Jafar as a gift. When we came to Medinah he gave it to Ali as a gift that she may serve him. Ali kept her in Fatima’s house. One day Fatima entered and saw that his head was in the girl’s lap. She said: “O Abu Al-Hasan! Have you done it!?” He said: “O daughter of Muhammad! I have done nothing, so what is it that you want?” She said: “Do you allow me to go to my father’s house?” He said: “I will allow you.” So she wore her Jilbab and went to the Prophet.
(source: Ibn Babaveh Al-Qummi’s “Elal Al-Sharae’”, p.163; it is also narrated in Bihar Al-Anwar, pp.43-44, Chapter on “How her life with Ali was”)

The incident quotes Abu Dharr as saying that he and Jafar bin Abi Talib came to Madina together. Jafar came to Madina following the conquest of Khyber that took place in the 7th Hijra whilst Abu Dharr arrived there after the battle of trench that was fought in the 5th Hijra. The conclusion arrived at is that Abu Dharr had reached Madina long before Jafar. Abu Dharr never went to Abyssinia nor did he return from there. This serves as further proof that the tradition is a fabrication.


well the writer of the article is very smart...he has also not written one of the hadith to the full...i will just give one paragaraph of the writer(given above) and complete the uncompleted part:

The Messenger of Allah then said: “O Ali! Do you not know that Fatima is a piece of me and I am from her? Whoever disturbs her, disturbs me and whoever disturbs me has disturbed Allah, and whoever disturbs her after my death then as if he has disturbed her in my lifetime and whoever disturbed her in my lifetime then it is as if he has disturbed her after my death.

Ali said: ‘Oh Allah's messenger, yes’. The Prophet said: ‘Then why you did so?’ Ali said: ‘By the one who sent you as Prophet, what you heard about me is not true and I never thought about that.’ The Prophet said: ‘You have spoken the truth’. Then Fatima smiled until her smile was visible.


therefore even if this Hadith "Fatima is part of me...." was said during the time mentioned by the accuser, then it surly does not go for Imam Ali (a.s)...for he even dint intend to marry her....


therefore...in the end of analysing this accusation, it shud now be sure to u that this narration has been made up by enemies of Imam Ali (a.s) such as Hassan bin Arafa and Wakee bin al-Jarah......


i hope my work clarifies my point.....therefore...now if Fatima (a.s) is angry....the Prophet (a.s) is angry...therefore we can see that Fatima (a.s) was angry with Abu Bakr till she died......and its easily seen that such a person does not deserve to rule people....
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Saladin

Verse 8:67-68 was a reproval for a decision the prophet took rejecting Umar al Faruq's opinion and this verse proved that the latter was right.

doesnt this clearly show that he was incapable of making decisions??

 

Read it again. The latter (Umar) was right.


i would apologise as i had written that in haste...

well the shia tafseers i have seen does not narrate the the verse in the context of ure claim....


the rest of ure posts has been replied on this thread...and therefore i will not repeat the answers...
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 4:27pm
i hope u all will w8 as some of my previous posts have still not been approved...
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seekshidayath
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bullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by asda

Originally posted by seekshidayath

To meet a death of martyr is the moment of happiness. Why do you all weep and cut yourselves. Don't even spare little kids.



You are people - so called - on a right path na !!! Becharay


where is the answer to my ONLY QUESTION.......my only question is also unanswered..
 
I just wanted to answer all your questions from the beginnning. So started with the hadith , which was quoted in your earlier posts. InshaAllah, in my next posts , you shall get your question answered.

while u have problems in our mourning style....well u knw that u have brought this up because u have no answer to my question...
 
You are very impatient and jump in to conclusions. And you are always wrong LOL
 
and thus now u r going off-topic....i will just give a simple reply of logic, and if u want to discuss this further, feel free to open a thread....

mourning is a protest against Yazeediyat as well..thus protesting has many forms...and one of the most common seen today is hunger strike.....u understand the logic between hunger strike, right??? surly u do....but isnt that harming oneself??? yes it is......
 
HUnger strike ! A muslim leads his life following Qur'an and sunnah. Prove me thru Qur'an and sunnah that these forms of strike like hunger strike is allowed in Islam. To cry over dead and valing is strictly prohibitted in Islam.

therefore our mourning, seeing it as a protest,we harm ourself (in limits)....
 
Limits !!!! to cut with swords over a child who is n't even of two years is the LIMIT . Does that child know, why is he protesting for ? Cud you not see the tears and pain of that child ?
 
Non-muslims, due to there ignorance, take shiates as muslims, and question as, Is this Islam ???  But again, i had to explain them about you all and content him

Al-Bukhaari (1294) and Muslim (103) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “He is not one of us who strikes his cheeks, rends his garment, or cries with the cry of the Jaahiliyyah.” 

Why don't you show your protest on the day when Ali RadhiAllah ta'ala anhu was matryred ?

due to the success in it, the naasibis(anti-shia) do their best to bomb our holy sites on our mourning days.......as they do their best to stop it....but they shud know that they will surly fail...


Edited by seekshidayath - 17 September 2008 at 6:59pm
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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