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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 15 September 2008 at 12:40pm
actually my posts really take time to get approved..even if they r a one liner....

y r u waistting our time...u knw my answer...
Maula Ali (a.s) was a shaheed..
Maula Hassain (a.s) was syed e Shuhada..

what do u want to prove here???
and wat has ure question to do with the topic going on??...which is the sahaaba..
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 15 September 2008 at 4:42pm
 
 Maula Ali (a.s) was a shaheed..
 Maula Hassain (a.s) was syed e Shuhada.
 
 Yes, thank you very much.
 
 Now please tell me about Imam Uthman, the third Caliph.
 Was he a Shaheed or Not? He was killed in the Capital.
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 16 September 2008 at 5:37am
on a lighter note:i never knew getting killed was the criteria of a shaheed...(",)

he and umar was not a shaheed since they dint die on eemaan...

lets see what has this to do with the topic...
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 16 September 2008 at 11:52pm
 
 

You have agreed that Hussain and Ali were Shaheed. But hazrat Uthman was not a Shaheed. Very bad. You are not a momin. You have bad ideology, bad agenda of hatred etc. You can never have the truth and there is now no need to discuss anything with you because you have come out as an open enemy of the First and second and third Imam of the ummah whom Ali gave his allegiance and even served faithfully under them.

I do not want to spoil your show but it is sure that the Shias have many illegal, illogical beliefs against the true principles of Islam. They think that the prophet was an ignorant person and he did not know that his close friends (his dear ones) were hypocrites. According to your theory, the prophet did not produce any good man except hazrat Ali. What a shameful idea.  (But that is beside the point here. It is not for you.)

That is not the only one bad idea but there is a very long list of such bad beliefs. It is such beliefs that ended the Khilafat. hazart Ali and his children were safe and living happily during the time of the Khalifas. But after the death of Hazrat Uthman, all the troubles for the family of Hazrat Ali started. When Hazrat Ali had no complaints against Hazrat Umar then what right have the shias to invent new complaints? Can you not see that you are playing in the hands of the enemies of Islam if you make difference between Abubakr, Umar Uthman and Ali?

Now you have special meanings for the Shaheed too. You do not see that Hazrat Uthman was cruelly killed in the capital by some enemies. Were they the followers of Hazrat Ali who killed Hazrat Uthman? If not then they must be the enemies of Ali who killed Uthman. But you say that Uthman is not Shaheed. I could also say that Hazrat Ali was killed in a battle. He was fighting hazrat Mua'wiyah so he was killed in a battle and he was not a Shaheed. Also Hussian knew where he was going. He was committing suicide. he could not be a Shaheed too because of his politics.

 

Such foolish things do not lead any one to good relations.

Whatever I have written above may not be your beliefs. So please forgive me if I have attributed anything wrong to you. But saying that Hazrat Uthman was not a Shaheed was wrong. In that way nobody could be a Shaheed. I hope you will think over  few things and let us know your good ideas.
 
mm


Edited by minuteman - 17 September 2008 at 12:08am
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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seekshidayath
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bullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 12:29am
Originally posted by asda

asda, if Allah wills, you may get your aqeedah changed. We pray for it.
if thats the case.....inshallah u might accept the path of Ahlel Bayt(a.s) for they know the Prophet (a.s) more then the others..


how can keeping very common names among the people be a sign of love for a sepecific person?? ure daleel astonishes me...
 
Well you said you believe in facts and you deny it !!!! It astonishes  me too that u did not understand this simple ---- Will you give your children in marriage in a family wherein you have differences or sort of enemity ?

He also gave his eldest daughter Umm Kulthoom in marriage to `Umar Ibn   khatab..


the event never took place bro...
 
Go thru the books of history. You shall know this FACT

Is it not intresting !!!!!

nope!!

while u have raised ure case by small events...
I invite u to the school of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) and fight with Imam Ali (a.s) in the Battle of Siffin and the battle of Jamal....
I invite u to stand beside the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) on their claims of fidak.
i Invite u to be with the ones who wanted the prophet (a.s) to write his will when he wanted pen and paper..
(thats just the begining)
i invite u to stay away from those who had hurt Fatima (a.s), the beloved doughter of the prophet (a.s)..
i invite u to stay away from those who did not let Prophet Muhammad (a.s) write his will...
i invite u to stay away from those who went against the orders of the Prophet Muhammad (a.s) and brought back Marwan bin Hakam's family back when the Prophet (a.s) had exiled them.....
i invite u stay away from the killers of Ammar bin Yaasir
i invite u to stay Away from the killers of Imam Hussain (a.s)..
(and thats just a begining as well i can go on and on)
I invite you to practically implement the hadith of not slandering the companions of Prophets or call them apostates { Nauzbillah} !!!!.I invite you the path of truth !

inshallah...if u do research on the topics being discussed, inshallah u will know that The school of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) is the only right path....
 
Well, now read the hadiths am going to paste in my next post, its from your - own sources


I may not answer all your questions. Frankly speaking, i did not read your posts with much concentration. Can you kindly, post one question in each post. I shall try my best to answer it {until this thread gets closed }

will u stop threatning me of closing this thread...i hav already told u that its not me going out of the topic....u kwn...i dint write a very looooong reply...but still u dint read it...well well....
 
Well, its again your problem if you mis-interpret me. This thread can be closed, even if  me or any other member does n't stick to the topic. Moderators here are fair. They can lay there stick over me too. Anyways, the final thing is this thread may get closed even if i don't stick to the topic. 
 
Your topic  does n't addresses the subject exactly, you are discussing. There are many other subjects cropping up. If i start up a topic "Islam", it shall never get it closed. Anyways, -----
 


id not want to answer you, as i wished to ignore. But again you may misconcept that we did not answer you , as we did not have answers with us.


y dont u understand that these debates are way much above than winning and loosing...u r still scratching ure head on that...i pity u bro....
 
Who said you that its about winning or loosing. Did you not read, i said, i shall discuss untill it gets closed. Not until u or me wins. ---- i pity u  tooo.  




...lets go one by one..now ure one Question:

y dint h.Fatima (a.s) know that she had no inheiritence??? infact it is not important for Abu Bakr to know about the fact that Prophets (a.s) dint leave any inheiritence...are u trying to tell me that the Prophet (a.s) dint do his job well??[/QUOTE]
 
Shall answer it insha-Allah, in my next  posts now.
 


Edited by seekshidayath - 17 September 2008 at 3:48am
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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seekshidayath
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bullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 12:32am

To meet a death of martyr is the moment of happiness. Why do you all weep and cut yourselves. Don't even spare little kids.

You are people - so called - on a right path na !!! Becharay
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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seekshidayath
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bullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 12:43am
Now coming to the hadith u had been repeating
 
Before going into it, let me help you learn a small but important point. A hadith can be well understood, infact can know it in real when, you go thru its context. Welll, here is a hadith from your own source  of ahle byth.
 
“Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry.”
 
Well, this is the hadith na, which you quoted. Now, read its explanation. Let's read it in its context
 
This incident is narrated by the esteemed founding father of Shia theology, Ibn Babaveh Al-Qummi, better known as Al-Sadooq. In his book, Al-Sadooq relayed the following narration on the authority of Imam Jafar as-Sadiq. This narration is also available on Al-Shia.com:
 
Translation: It is narrated on the authority of Abu Abdullah Jafar Al-Sadiq: A miserable of the miserables came to Fatima, the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, and said to her: “Did you not know that Ali proposed to marry (Khataba) the daughter of Abu Jahl?” She said: “Is it true what you say? He said three times: “What I say is true.” Jealousy entered into her (heart) to an extent she could not control, for Allah has ordained that women be jealous and that men perform Jihad, and He has made the reward of the patient (woman) similar to that of the Murabit and Muhajir in the way of Allah.
 
He said: And Fatima’s anguish became severe and she remained thinking about it until night time…she moved to her father’s residence. Ali came to his residence and did not see Fatima and his anguish increased and became great on him, even though he did not know what happened, and he was ashamed to call her from her father’s house so he went to the Masjid and prayed as much as Allah willed, and he collected some of the sand in the Masjid and laid on it.
 
When the Prophet saw how sad and anguished Fatima was, he poured water over himself and wore his clothes and entered the Masjid. He kept praying, making Rukoo and Sujood, and after every time he completed two Raka he made Du’a that Allah remove what Fatima had of sadness and anguish because he left her turning over and breathing heavily. When the Prophet saw that she could not sleep and could not rest he said: “O daughter, rise!” So she rose and the Prophet carried Al-Hassan and she carried Al-Hussain and took hold of Umm Kulthoom’s hand until they reached Ali (AS) while he was sleeping.
 
The Prophet put his foot on Ali, pinched him, and said: “Rise Abu Turab! You have disturbed many a resting person. Call for me Abu Bakr from his house and Umar from his Majlis and Talha.” So Ali went and got them from their houses and they gathered around the Messenger of Allah.
 
The Messenger of Allah then said: “O Ali! Do you not know that Fatima is a piece of me and I am from her. Whoever disturbs her, disturbs me and whoever disturbs me has disturbed Allah, and whoever disturbs her after my death then as if he has disturbed her in my lifetime and whoever disturbed her in my lifetime then as if he has disturbed her after my death.”
 
(source: Ibn Babveh Al Qummi’s “Elal Al-Sharae’”, pp.185-186, Al-Najaf Print; also narrated in Majlisi “Bihar” 43/201-202)
 
This story is not only narrated by the Shia founding father Al-Qummi, but it is also narrated by Al-Majlisi in his book Jala Al-Eoyon. There are not many scholars of the Shia considered more authoratative than Al-Qummi and Al-Majlisi, and both narrate this story.
 
It was actually Ali  who had angered Fatima , and consequently, the Prophet  chastised him by saying that whoever angers Fatima  angers him. According to the Shia narration above, the Prophet  even “put his foot on Ali” and “pinched him.” Not only this, but the Prophet  rounded up some of the Sahabah in order to publically chastise Ali  on the matter. Hence, if the Shia would like to condemn Abu Bakr  for angering Fatima , then what about this incident in which Ali  does so? In fact, the very statement that the silly Shia use against us is in fact the same statement that was used by the Prophet  as a chastisement of Ali !
 
And this was not the only time that Ali angered Fatima . According to Shia sources, we see several other instances. On one occassion, she was angry with Ali  because she saw his head in the lap of a slave girl that was given to him as a gift. She even left him for awhile and went to her father’s house, which is something that females do when they are upset with their husbands or they are facing marital problems. This narration is available on the YaZahra.com, a reputable Shia website:
 
 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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seekshidayath
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bullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 12:54am

Translation: Al-Qummi and Al-Majlisi narrated on the authority of Abu Thar: I migrated with Jafar ibn Abi Talib to Abyssynia. A slave girl worth 4,000 dirhams was given to Jafar as a gift. When we came to Medinah he gave it to Ali as a gift that she may serve him. Ali kept her in Fatima’s house. One day Fatima entered and saw that his head was in the girl’s lap. She said: “O Abu Al-Hasan! Have you done it!?” He said: “O daughter of Muhammad! I have done nothing, so what is it that you want?” She said: “Do you allow me to go to my father’s house?” He said: “I will allow you.” So she wore her Jilbab and went to the Prophet.

(source: Ibn Babaveh Al-Qummi’s “Elal Al-Sharae’”, p.163; it is also narrated in Bihar Al-Anwar, pp.43-44, Chapter on “How her life with Ali was”)

Yasoob.com is another well-known Shia website, and it too has these narrations in which Fatima is angered by Ali.

The Shia say that Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) was angry at Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) in the incident of Fadak, but what about their own narrations that say that she was also angry at Ali (رضّى الله عنه) at the same time? We read the following, as narrated by Al-Majlisi’s Haqq-ul-Yaqeen as well as in Al-Tusi’s Amali:
 
“When Fatima asked for Fadak from Abu Bakr and he refused to give it to her, she returned full of anger that could not be described and she was sick; and she was angry with Ali because he refused to help her.” (Al-Majlisi’s Haqq-ul-Yaqeen, pp.203-204; also recorded in Al-Tusi’s Amali, p.295)
 
Thus, based on the simple fact that Ali (رضّى الله عنه) made Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) angry on more than one occassion, we arrive at the following conclusions:
1) The Prophet’s saying “whoever disturbs her, disturbs me” is addressed to Ali (رضّى الله عنه) but the Shia use it only for Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه); if this statement involved punishment from Allah then it would certainly befall Ali (رضّى الله عنه) before Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه).
 
 
2) There are other incidents (narrated by the well-reknowned Al-Majlisi, Al-Tusi, Al-Erbali, and others) that occurred in which Ali (رضّى الله عنه) angered Fatima (رضّى الله عنها). What is the Shia response to this anger? Whatever response they use to defend Ali (رضّى الله عنه), then we could use the same response to defend Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه).
 
No obedience In transgression

When the Shia try to condemn Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) by bringing up the Prophet’s words (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) about making Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) angry, we ask these mindless Shia to think of similar Hadith and Quranic exhortations about not making one’s parents angry. The Prophet has said that if a person makes his parents angry, then this will anger Allah. We are told that if we disobey or anger our parents, we disobey and anger Allah. However, what if a parent asks his daughter not to wear the Hijab, and what if he gets angry if she does wear it? Would it then be sinful for the girl to continue wearing Hijab? Of course not! The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said:
 
“There is no obedience in transgression. Verily, obedience is in good deeds [only].” (Sahih Bukhari, Muslim)
 
We cannot obey another human being above Allah and His Messenger. So how could Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) place the words of Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) above that of the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) who clearly said that Prophets do not leave behind inheritance?
 
Fatima’s anger (رضّى الله عنها) in context

It should be noted that Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) is not God. Her anger does not decide who will go to Paradise and who will not. Not even the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) is God; nor will his anger decide who will go to Paradise and who will not. If the Shia ask us proof of this claim, then we give them the example of Washu who killed the Prophet’s uncle, Hamza (رضّى الله عنه). Washu would later convert to Islam and repent for his crimes; even still, the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) could not help but feel anger when he saw the face of the man who killed his uncle. However, this was only the personal feeling of the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم). It does not mean that Washu would be condemned to Hell-Fire for crimes that he committed prior to his conversion to Islam.
 
In any case, Fatima’s anger (رضّى الله عنها) is not the factor which decides who goes to Paradise and who burns in Hell-Fire. If Fatima’s anger (رضّى الله عنها) is based on something which is wrong from a Shariah standpoint [i.e. Fadak], then how can this be the reason for Abu Bakr’s condemnation (رضّى الله عنه)? Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) was angry at Ali (رضّى الله عنه) on at least one occassion: Ali (رضّى الله عنه) greatly upset Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) on many occassions, and even there were incidents in which she was so angry that she left Ali’s house (رضّى الله عنه) and went to stay with her father. Do we condemn Ali (رضّى الله عنه) as a Kaffir now?
 
The truth of the matter is that people–even loved ones–get in arguments. We have yet to see a husband who does not get in arguments with his wife. Siblings fight all the time, and parents get angry at their children. We even have the example of Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) who lost patience with Khidr (عليه السلام), and yet we find that these are amongst the best of people as mentioned in the Quran (and “infallible” according to the Shia). Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) and Umar (رضّى الله عنه) got in arguments, and yet we know that they were best of friends. Likewise, we believe that Ali (رضّى الله عنه) got in arguments with Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) and Umar (رضّى الله عنه). And the Ahlus Sunnah has no issue with this, so why do the Shia suddenly think we would cower at the site of anyone getting in one argument with Fatima (رضّى الله عنها)?
 
The Shia exploit the Hadith about whoever makes Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) angry makes the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) angry. The Shia believe that the same is true of Ali (رضّى الله عنه), that whoever makes him angry also makes the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) angry. Likewise, the Ahlus Sunnah believes that whoever upsets the Sahabah makes the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) angry. Thus, the Hadith about angering Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) must be taken into the appropriate context and cannot be taken in such simplistic and stark terms.
 
Furthermore, Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) was the Caliph of the Ummah; this is the highest rank possible, and all the subjects must obey him. As such, he deserved the respect and obedience of his subjects, of which includes Fatima (رضّى الله عنها). As such, if the Shia want to argue that Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) should have been careful about angering Fatima (رضّى الله عنها), an unbiased observer could easily argue that it was Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) who should have been careful of angering the Caliph of the Muslims who by the Shariah was at a rank higher in status than anyone else. If the Shia want to argue that Fatima’s position (رضّى الله عنها) is higher due to the fact that she is leader of the women of Paradise, then we can also say that Aisha’s position (رضّى الله عنها) is higher than that of Ali’s (رضّى الله عنه) based on the fact that she is “Mother of the Believers” as mentioned in the Quran.
Of course, the Ahlus Sunnah does not judge the Companions and relatives of the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم), unlike the Shia slanderers. Hence, we do not criticize Fatima (رضّى الله عنها); we think she made a sincere mistake, and nothing more. The Shia propagandists will now resort to rhetoric and emotional arguments whereby they will ask if it is possible that the daughter of the Prophet–who was raised by him–could possibly not know a Hadith or make such a grievous mistake. By this same logic, one could defend all of the actions of Aisha (رضّى الله عنها), for she was the wife of the Prophet who was married to him at the tender age of six. So if the Shia ask why we say Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) made a mistake, we ask the Shia why they say Aisha (رضّى الله عنها) made mistakes (and even worse according to the Shia).
 
The reality is that any human being–even the greatest of Muslims–is capable of making mistakes. We reject the concept of infallibility; it is a form of exaggeration and an extension of Shirk, whereby the quality of Allah (i.e. perfection) is given to humans. Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) did not know of the Prophet’s Hadith which forbade inheritance from him. Thus, her demand for Fadak was not based out of sin, but rather out of a sincere mistake; mistakes are made by everyone, even the most pious individuals.
Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) reconciled with Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه)

In any case, it was only initially that Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) was angry at Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه). The Shia endeavour to capitalize on her feelings to convey the idea that because she was wronged, she had directed that Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) should not attend her Janaazah and that she remained angry with him until her demise. We do not agree with this narrative, and we believe that Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) eventually became pleased with Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه).
 
Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) was not motivated by ill-feeling or malice for Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) in the dispute regarding inheritance. In fact, placating her, Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) frequently said:
 
“By Allah! Oh daughter of Rasool-Allah! Kindness to the relatives of Rasool-Allah is more beloved to me than my kindness with my own relatives.”
 
According to both Sunni and Shia narrations, Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) was greatly saddened by Fatima’s displeasure (رضّى الله عنها). He went to great lengths to please her while remaining firm on the Shariah. He went to her home, stood at her door in the midday sun and asked Ali (رضّى الله عنه) to be his intercessor in his sincere attempt to placate and please Fatima (رضّى الله عنها). Ultimately, she became pleased with him and accepted his decision. These narrations appear in Madaarijun Nubuwwah, Kitaabul Wafaa, Baihaqi and in the commentaries of Mishkaat.
 
Kitaabul Muwaafiqah narrates that Anaani said:
“Abu Bakr came to the door of Fatima in the midday sun and said: ‘I shall not leave from here as long as the daughter of Rasool-Allah remains displeased with me. Ali came to Fatima and giving her an oath urged her to become pleased. Then she became pleased (with Abu Bakr).”
Shia records also confirm that Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) became pleased with Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه).
 
 The Shia author of Hujjaajus Saalikeen states:
“Verily, when Abu Bakr saw that Fatima was annoyed with him, shunned him and did not speak to him after this on the issue of Fadak, he was much aggrieved on account of this. He resolved to please her. He went to her and said: ‘Oh daughter of Rasool-Allah! You have spoken the truth in what you have claimed, but I saw Rasool-Allah distributing it (i.e. the income of Fadak). He would give it to the Fuqaraa, Masaakeen and wayfarers after he gave your expenses and expenses of the workers.’ She then said: ‘Do with it as my father, Rasool-Allah had done.’ Abu Bakr said: ‘I take an oath by Allah for you! It is incumbent on me to do with it what your father used do with it.’ Fatima said: ‘ By Allah! You should most certainly do so.’ Abu Bakr said: ‘ By Allah! I shall most certainly do so.’ Fatima said: ‘O Allah! Be witness.’ Thus, she became pleased with this and she took a pledge from Abu Bakr. Abu Bakr would give them (Fatima and others of the Ahlel Bayt) expenses therefrom and distribute the balance to the Fuqaraa, Masaakeen and wayfarers.”
 
In the very reliable narration of Sunan Al-Bayhaqi, we read:
 
“When Fatima became ill, Abu Bakr came to her and asked for permission to enter. So Ali said, ‘O Fatima, this is Abu Bakr asking for permission to enter.’ She answerd, ‘Do you want me to give him permission?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ So she allowed him (to enter), and he came in seeking her pleasure, so he told her: ‘By Allah, I only left my home and property and my family seeking the pleasure of Allah and His Messenger and you, O Ahlel Bayt.’ So he talked to her until she was pleased with him.” (Sunan Al-Bayhaqi)
This Hadith is narrated by Bayhaqi in al Sunan al Kubra (6:300-301) and Dala’il al-Nubuwwa (7:273-281) who said: “It is narrated with a good (hasan) chain.” Muhibb al Din al-Tabari cited it in al Riyad Al Nadira (2:96-97 #534) and Dhahabi in the Siyar (Ibid). Ibn Kathir states it as Sahih in his Al Bidayah and Ibn Hajar in his Fath Al Bari.
 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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