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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 10 September 2008 at 4:26pm
asda, you have differing knowledge about Islam. You say that the first three Khalifas were elected by men and not appointed by Allah. But Hazrat Ali only was appointed as Khalifah by Allah.


well thats the truth..

Q1. Can you show me how Hazrat Ali was appointed by Allah?


well this questions has thousands of answers....well i know only a few of them...shud i relate to u the event of ghadir e khum, or the verse of vilayah, the comparision of Aaron with Moses (may peace be on both of them) with prophet muhammad (a.s) and Maula Ali (a.s)...the laws of Successorship in Quran (well thats a bit inter-related).....and umm..i cant remember any more...other answers i know here and there....


well we can start with gadhir e khum....which is the clear most event of appointment of Imam Ali (a.s) as his (a.s) successor..




the Prophet (PBUH&HF) stopped on that place (the pond of Khum) which was extremely hot. Then he sent for all people who have been ahead in the way, to come back and waited until all pilgrims who fell behind, arrived and gathered. He ordered Salman (RA) to use rocks and camel
toolings to make a pulpit (minbar) so he could make his announcement.

On this day the Messenger of Allah spent approximately five ours in this place; three hours of which he was on the pulpit. He recited nearly one hundred verses from The Glorious Quran, and for seventy three times reminded and warned people of their deeds and future. Then he gave them a long speech. The following is a part of his speech which has been widely narrated by the Sunni traditionists:

The Messenger of Allah declared: "It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right (Awla) over the believers than what they have over themselves?" People cried and answered: "Yes, O' Messenger of God." Then Prophet (PBUH) held up the hand of Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla). O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."


Some of the Sunni references:
(1) Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
(2) Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
(3) Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 4,21
(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
(5) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370,
    372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
(6) Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
(7) Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
(8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
(9) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
(10) Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173
(11) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208
(12) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114
(13) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308
(14) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144
(15) Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26
(16) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319,
     v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143
(17) Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn
     al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas,
     Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,...
(18) Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290
(19) Hilyatul Awliya', by al-Hafiz Abu Nu'aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27
(20) al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word "ayn" (Ali), v2, p462
(21) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397
(22) al-Mirqat, v5, p568
(23) al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172
(24) Dhaka'ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68
(25) Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217
(26) Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p297

Let me remind u that the hadith of Ghadir is a mutawaatir Hadith....

well the argument which is done by the sunnis is that the word MAWLA means "friend"...our response:

we cant look at one sentence of the hadith and make an assumption....the word mawla has various meanings....infact the root of the word Mawla as far as i know is the word AWLA....the word AWLA means athority...well i wud request u to go up and look back at the full saying of the Prophet (a.s)...and here is the arabic narration just to make it ez:

     
حدثنا ابن نمير حدثنا عبد الملك يعني ابن أبي سليمان عن عطية العوفي قال سألت زيد بن أرقم فقلت له إن ختنا لي حدثني عنك بحديث في شأن علي رضي الله تعالى عنه يوم غدير خم فأنا أحب أن أسمعه منك فقال إنكم معشر أهل العراق فيكم ما فيكم فقلت له ليس عليك مني بأس فقال نعم كنا بالجحفة فخرج رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إلينا ظهرا وهو آخذ بعضد علي رضي الله تعالى عنه فقال يا أيها الناس ألستم تعلمون أني أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم قالوا بلى قال فمن كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه قال فقلت له هل قال اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه قال إنما أخبرك كما سمعت

look at the words AWLA (i cant highlight it...cuz aint working right)....the prophet simple asks:
"Do I not have more right (Awla) over the believers than what they have over themselves?"

and the rest of the ppl reply positively....now abviosly the Prophet (a.s) is talking about leadership in the above sentence...and surly its common sense to say that the topic of leadership was being discussed...therefore next the prophet (a.s) says: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla)."


the sunni support their case of mawla's meaning to be a "friend" with an event that happend in yemen...if that was the case then common sense says that the prophet (a.s) wud just adress them calling them personally...and not delivering a speach where he mentions that he is gonna die soon in the 1st sentence...

"Had he desired to just show `Ali's contributions, and to rebut those who bore grudge against him, he (pbuh) would simply have said: "This is my cousin, my son­in­law, the father of my descendants, the master of my household; therefore, do not harm him," or something like this to show mere admission of status and dignity. But the way this hadith is worded gives no impression other than what we have suggested. It points out rational and deductive proofs."



This is one of the places where the Prophet (a.s) clearly indicated the fact that Imam Ali (a.s) was his successor...


Your knowledge about Hazrat harun is also very weak. He was the Khalifah only during a short time when Hazrat Musa went on the mount. He was not a Khalifah for all times.


i knw that...and i did mention the fact that he died b4 h.Musa....but the main point to look at is how he was appointed...even for a second....
well if u want more examples from the history of Islam, i can bring them to u..



I will post further about your ideas. No offence. I hope you will not give me any chance to use any harsh words. It all depends on you. The moment I detect that you have used any bad word about the senior Sahabah or about the mothers of the faithful then I will check you.


inshallah we will debate in an healthy manner and respect each other's leaders...even if they are scholars...and think about the facts presented...and not just deny it just because it goes against what has been taught from childhood.....


So I have only replied to your Harun statements and about the short time Khilafat of Hazrat Ali. I had informed you that the matters are decided by Mushawarat (consultation). There is no family affair in Islam. Otherwise it will be like did Hazrat Mua'awiyah that he made his son Yazeed the Khalifah.


any one example from the past where the khilafat of Allah (s.w.t) was established by Mushawarat among "HUMANS"??? as the quran mentions the criteria of future caliphs of Allah (s.w.t)...


Q 2. Do you want a similar system in Islam? That is the system of the kings. Or the Hindus have a caste system. The son of a Brahmin is a Brahmin, a sacred cow? (more later when I read your reply carefully)


well the fathers (a.s) dint appoint the son as an Imam...Allah (s.w.t) did so...
and u r opening another chapter of Khilafat..u say that Imamat is like kingdom...which is not the fact...kingdom is where the earlier ruler appoints the latter...and its not true here.....

we better discuss one point....actually this debate has gone thru varios topics...and suddenly we r not discussing Sahaaba (as is the topic) and we r discussing Imamat/Khilafat...do u think we shud continue on another thread and leave this for discussing the acts of the sahaaba???
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 10 September 2008 at 10:54pm
 
 asda, thanks for your reply. It has been noticed hat even you may not have been harsh but you have one way traffic. Youhave things of your own choice and you will reject the presentations of others. So how can the truth be decided. I am sure that you and your entire group is wrong. The reason being hatred of the very senior members of the Ummah.
 
 Now I am calling you wrong. I hope it is not abuse.
 
 I have full reply for your wrong ideas and I would reply if permitted by Seeks...
 
 As for as your Maula:
 
 Read please the meaning of maula in your maula of Ghadeer. The meaning you have given is authority: By that you mean Haakim or ruler, I suppose. Now read:
 
 If I am the ruler of some one then Ali is the ruler of that one. O, Allah, you also be the ruler of that one who is the ruler of Ali and you also be the enemy of the one who is the enemy of Ali.
 
  You can see the things now. Is it not a joke?. Maula is every where as your ruler in the translation of that hadith which is not authentic. i will prove it soon. What do you say, the above translation is right or wrong?
 
 And please do not give any Hadith business. I have told you before. First we should have Quran. And your case of Haroon a.s. does not fit. He was a prophet. He was khalifah for a short time as long as Hazrat Musa a.s was away from the place. Do you have such a similar thing for Hazrat Ali in the Quran?
 
 I shall look forward to the advice of Seeks to proceed further in this matter.
 
 
 
 If
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 10 September 2008 at 10:57pm
 
 asda, I am waiting for your reply to the four questions that I raised in the other thread i.e. Traveeh.
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 10 September 2008 at 10:59pm
 
 To Seeks:  asda has again entered the field. I am sorry that I have acted against your advice. Please guide or do something. Thanks.
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 11 September 2008 at 5:48am
asda, thanks for your reply. It has been noticed hat even you may not have been harsh but you have one way traffic. Youhave things of your own choice and you will reject the presentations of others. So how can the truth be decided. I am sure that you and your entire group is wrong. The reason being hatred of the very senior members of the Ummah.


well give me ONE sentence from u which i hav denied without proof and reasoning..if there is then inshallah i will sort it out....
if the ppl u call "senior members of the ummah" so gud...then y did the Prophet (a.s)'s own doughter never spoke with them till she died??u knw the status of bibi Fatima Az-Zahraa (s.a)!!!!how can anybody hurt her and think that the Prophet (a.s) will be happy with him...if anybody hurts ure daughter (god forbid!!) will u ever like that person??
and if the Prophet (a.s) is not happy with such a person...then how can u even think they are worthy of praise??

Now I am calling you wrong. I hope it is not abuse.

that is nothing but a stubborn attitude u have....

If I am the ruler of some one then Ali is the ruler of that one. O, Allah, you also be the ruler of that one who is the ruler of Ali and you also be the enemy of the one who is the enemy of Ali.


well the "WAAALI" (and not mawla...i hope u can read arabic) is there a connection between the that word with "MAWLA" and "AWLA"????...

chalo u want 2 way traffic....well even if i accept ure translation as being friend...then y wud the prophet (a.s) would give so much importance to this and deliver a whole speach due to the fact that a few ppl disliked Imam Ali (a.s)....he would hav just gone and tole them that Imam Ali (a.s) is with "HAQ"...and y did the prophet (a.s) mention the fact that he is gonna die soon..and thirdly y would this event take place:

خرجنا مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حتى نزلنا غدير خم بعث مناديا ينادي فلما اجتمعنا قال : ألست أولى بكم من أنفسكم ؟ ‏قلنا : بلى يارسول الله ، قال : ألست أولى بكم من امهاتكم ؟ قلنا : بلى يا رسول الله ، قال : ألست أولى بكم من آبائكم ؟ قلنا : ‏بلى يا رسول الله ، قال : ألست ؟ ألست ؟ ألست ؟ قلنا: بلى يارسول الله ، قال : من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه ( 1 ) أللهم وال من ‏والاه ، وعاد من عاداه ، فقال عمر بن الخطاب : هنيئا لك يابن ابي طالب أصبحت اليوم ولي كل مؤمن‎

Traveling with the Messenger of Allah [s], we stopped at the pond of Khumm and the Prophet [s] sent someone to call upon people to gather. When we came together he said: ‘Do I not have more right with you than your own selves?’ We said: ‘Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allah!’ He continued: ‘Do I not have more right with you than your mothers?’ We said: ‘Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allah!’ He continued: ‘Do I not have more right with you than your fathers?’ We replied: ‘Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allah!’ He kept asking ‘Do I not have’, and we kept answering ‘Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allah!’ He concluded: ‘To whoever I am his master, ‘Ali is his master. O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him.’ 'Umar b. al-Khattab said: ‘Congratulations O Ibn Abi Talib, today you have become the master(MAWLA) of every believer.’

Al-Bidayah wa'l-Nihayah fi al-Ta'rikh   
Cairo: Matba`at al-Sa`adah (14 vols), 1932- vol. 7, p. 349    
Mishkat al-Masabih   
Damascus: al-Maktab al-islami (3 vols), 1961-62 vol. 3, p. 246    
Al-Musannaf   
Karachi: Idara al-Qur'an wa al-`ulum al-Islamiyyah (15 vols in 16 parts), 1987 CE vol. 12, p. 78
Ta'rikh Baghdad   
Beirut: Dar al-kutub al-`arabi (18 vols), n.d. vol. 8, p. 290    
and this tridation is available in more books...


now if ure translation is correct then adding friend as mawla does not make sense.....i mean...how many times u hav been congratulated on making Friends.....:NONE....isnt it....


the waali means friend as it gets clear in the other part of the sentence...

I shall look forward to the advice of Seeks to proceed further in this matter.


i again would like to remind u that i dint force u to debate me....u came at ure own will......infact many sunni scholars do their best to keep the two parties i.e shia and sunnis away from each other...for facts known to them only...i hardly know a sunni to shia convert who has not been scolded by a sunni scholar(in his sunni days) for being in contact with the shias...


infact, more than making each other convert.....we should more focus on how to bring peace within the two groups to have unity among muslims.....and discussing these matters do help know each other.....while it is in instincts of a human to accept the truth.....
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Saladin
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bullet Posted: 11 September 2008 at 10:27am

....just give me example of one caliph of Allah!!!!! 

No one is the successor of Allah. I'm sure you said it out of ignorance.

...i was just trying to show u that the whole "ummah" dint accept him as caliph....
 
Whole ummah? Munafiqs, zakat deniers, Musailama and the other false prophets?
 
"Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry." (sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 5, p. 61.)

and i want to again remind u:
[Quran 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.
 
[Quran 53:4] It is naught but revealation that is revealed,
 
True. The Quran and everything concerning belief and worship is by wahi. But not all sayings and actions of the Prophet were by wahi. Some of his sayings and actions were reproved by Allah in the Quran. See 66:1, 9:43, 80:1-11 and 8:67-68.
 
Verse 8:67-68 was a reproval for a decision the prophet took rejecting Umar al Faruq's opinion and this verse proved that the latter was right.
 

 
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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bullet Posted: 11 September 2008 at 11:01am
Quran 48:18
Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance unto thee beneath the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down peace of reassurance on them, and hath rewarded them with a near victory.
 
To say that most of the people, who Allah attests as believers in this verse, later became unbelievers, is tantamount to disbelief. Allah would never have attested their belief if they had gone on to disbelieve and He surely would not have been pleased with the deeds of people who would become unbelievers.
 
Quran 24:23
Lo! as for those who traduce virtuous, believing women (who are) careless, cursed are they in the world and the Hereafter. Theirs will be an awful doom.
 
To continue slandering Aisha (ra) when Allah has attested her belief and chastity is also tantamount to disbelief. 

'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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bullet Posted: 11 September 2008 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by asda

This is a strawman and a willfull distortion of the topic. Your claim is not a "strong point" of Sunnis which you are trying to distort.

thats a general fact...
 
 
What I find very telling about you is that are simply regurgitating (pasting) Shia diatribe, because in this entire reply from you, all you have done is "repeat" yourself, as if repeating various fallacies will some how make them true.
 
 
If it is a "general fact", then show that the general applies to particulars. You cannot assert your way through a discussion. If you will not back up your claims, then I will close this thread. It is that simple.
 
 
 
 
 


Another strawman, for thinking that the companions were divine would be shirk. Hardly a "strong point" from Muslims. As far as being sent by Allah, I would love to know just how you have ascertained the mind of Allah and His relationship with mankind. I am guessing you do not have any real answers to my ojections and your points were just part of your hyporbole and over editorializing of the topic.


if the sahaaba dint exist...wud prophet muhammad (a.s)'s mission had failed??u knw the answer..

 
 
 
"u knw"..."cuz"..????? I am not one of your "texting buddies" in class.  Appearance goes a long way, and you might be taken much more serious if you used real words.
 
 
Now, about your reply, once again you did not respond to what I stated. In fact, your reply is completely irrelevant. You made a claim, and I am calling you on it. You now have comitted a fallacy of "irrelevancy".
 
 
 
1) Show that Muslims worship the sahaba?
2) Show how you are able to ascertain whether or not some was/or was not sent by God?
 
 

Thats quite a sweeping generalization. The topic of the companions is not as simplistic, nor is the view of Muslims so simplistic of the topic. A certain amount of adhab is used when approaching any of them, which does not mean that adhab for all is equivalent to worshiping for a few, many, most, or any.


well its not genralized???then we stand at the same point...cuz above i have been debating about the fact that all companions in "general" was not on haq...

 
 
Not only is your texting style usage of words annoying, but you are unable to put out a coherent response. Are you now asking me if your claim is true? Are you telling me it is true? If it is a "general fact", then it should not be difficult for you to establish it here and now beyond your rediculous assertions. You seem to know more about my faith then I do. Astounding!
 
You are able to ascertain which companions were not of God and which were? Shi'ites never seem to amaze me. Please, show us the methodology you use to determine which companion was not of God and which was? As of now, you are trying to use unargued assertions to try and smear whoever you like. If you are unable to begin providing a criteria, a case, an example, that begins to show your claim of a "general fact", then this thread is closed.
 
 
 
 

Adhab and piety are not the same things. Instead of making claims which such gaping generalizations, why not clarify your stance.


wat clarification do u need...plz clarify...

 
 
The same clarification I have been asking for from the beginning that you are now avoiding, in part because you are limited to copying and pasting Shia polemics, but you are unable to get into the "nitty gritty" of the discussion. Your attempt to play obtuse is entertaining.
 
 
 

And you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example.

You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".[/QIAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example.

You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".UPTAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example.

You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established"


well look at the next aayah..

 
 
 
I do not need you to give me a verse from the Quran along with your official SHi'ite exegesis of the passage. You are full of assertions, what we need is for you to establish your first, basic claims.
 
 
 
 


Another complex question (a fallacy), please establish that every person that came in contact with the prophet is a saint, from the position of Muslims. The rest of your question is perplexing. Please clarify.

not every person...but as u say...all the sahaaba has the "as-sakinah"...

 
 
 
About your claim, please establish this belief we have. Clarify (not a quote from your websites or another assertion).
 
 
 
 
 

how are you able to read God's mind to know who He likes or does not like?

now u r making it complex...well the quran is the best way know Allah (s.w.t)...tho he is above our understanding...but we can upto a certain level.

 
It is not a complex question. There are no unargued claims buried in the premise of the question. It is not "complex". It is a a valid question pertaining to your claims.
 
 
 


This begs the question: So what? How does this prove your sect's basic claims? I will answer for you: It does not without some manipulation and supposition.


the aayah is just an example of the point made above it...and u have taken it seperately..
 
 
What point was that? You have made unargued assertions, and now you want to use a verse from the Quran and then handwave your interpretation? Willful distortions do not count as valid, or even reasonable claims.
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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