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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 08 September 2008 at 5:10am
Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem..
Salaams...

It is an old shameful attitude of the Shias. That is all.


hey...i can hav such hard attitute towards u...but i believe in facts...and just not accept something just because i like....does this show ure incapability to defend some of the acts of the sahaaba after the prophet (a.s)....

Yes, it is talking about the Ist Khalifah and the second and the third Khalifah. Khalifah Raashid is always made by Allah. The verse says that Allah will surely establish Khilafat. And He did it. You are opposing Allah's Will.


i asked u simple question....and u dint even try to answer it.....look at the Quranic words:

Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors. [QURAN 24:55>

i ask: Give me an example from the HISTORY OF ISLAM WHERE A KHALIPHA OF GOD WAS MADE AS (U SAY) IT WAS MADE IN SAQIFA????....the history of islam starts from Hazrat Adam (a.s)....just give me example of one caliph of Allah!!!!!


There will be stability in Madinah (the capital) then there will be stability in the rest of the places. You wanted to destroy the peace of the state of Madinah with your plan of non-election of a Khalifah? The head of state has to be elected immediately and the man who dies may not even be buried until a new head (Imam) is elected.


you forgot abu bakr's war on the ppl who dint give zakah to the new ruler....while the quran clearly states:
"There is no compulsion in religion"....was this peace....was this a caliph accepted the whole ummah as u claim??



Where is it in this verse that others will not be forgiven. You are putting or suggesting some words for nothing. Hazrat Ali is included in these people. What is your problem? Why you are adding words in the verse which are not there? The verse says " Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him ..... " Allah has remembered them with good words. Those who are with the prophet s.a.w.s. But you seem to disagree....


acha....read the words of Allah (s.w.t):
"Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward"

doesnt this clearly states that there r 2 groups among the sahaaba...for if one genrally says: among u there r ppl who are gud...doesnt that mean the rest are bad????


[QUOTE]We do not soon read that. That is also a hadith which is fabricated. Because it puts a bad shape on Fatima, that she was greedy. The story seems to be fabricated. The reasons will be clear later.
In a verse of the Quran, in chapter 33 near the end, it is written that those who displease ( and hurt) the believers, they are cursed by Allah. there is la'anat on them from Almighty Allah.[QUOTE]

is claiming ones own right called GREED????? ok now for example..someone goes and robs ure house (GOD FORBID!!)...and u go to the athorities to claim ure stuff....IS THIS GREED???? ARE U ACCUSING THE DOUGHTER OF THE PROPHET (A.s) OF GREED WEN SHE CAME TO CLAIM HER OWN RIGHTS????? (i am not shouting....just highlighting some facts and questions for u to answer).....

secondly...just because u dont like the hadith....that does not make it fabricated....surly..."those who displease the believers, they are cursed by Allah (s.w.t)"....wasnt H.z Fatima (s.a) a believer....infact she was the BEST OF THEM!!!

i hav thrown u a bunch of questions...will u still ignore them like the ones u ignored on the taraaweeh thread??
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 08 September 2008 at 6:33am
Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem.

now to seekhidayath:

br...uptill now i hav liked the replies which are based on quran and sunnah/hadith....and has some logic..

"He it is Who sent down As-Sakinah into the hearts of the believers, that they may grow more in faith along with their faith. And to Allah belong the armies of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise"- 48 : 4

48 : 5. That He may admit the believing men and the believing women to Gardens under which rivers flow to abide therein forever, and He may expiate from them their sins; and that is with Allah supreme success,

In these verses , Allah swt has made mention of sending down sakinat (tranquillity) and of effecting increase in the Faith of all those Companions who were present with the Holy Prophet at Hudaibiyah, and given them without any exception the good news of admission into Paradise.

48 : 18. Indeed, Allah was pleased with the believers when they gave the pledge to you under the tree, He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down As-Sakinah upon them, and He rewarded them with a near victory

Remember, the sahabas, you all slander, were under this tree. { Its regarding Baithul- Ridwan} . AIIah has expressed His good pleasure for aII those who took the pledge to the Holy Prophet under the Tree, and in this also there is no exception. When these companions were given the glad tidings of Jannah, why shud we then make those differences loud which were under a misconception and later cleared.


48 : 26. When those who disbelieve had put in their hearts pride and haughtiness -- the pride and haughtiness of the time of ignorance, -- then Allah sent down His calmness and tranquillity upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and made them stick to the word of Taqwa; and they were well entitled to it and worthy of it. And Allah is the All-Knower of everything.

In verse 26 also AIIah has used the word mu 'minin (believers) for aII the Companions, has made mention of sending down His sakinat to there, and obliged them to be righteous and pious, for they were most worthy and deserving of aII mankind. Here also it was not said that the news was being given only abut those who were believers among them. Then in the initial sentences also of this verse itself the characteristics mentioned arc of alI those people who were with the Holy Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be Allah's peace and blessings). The words are to the effect that aII the people who are with him have this and this quality and characteristic. After this, suddenly in the last sentence there could be no excuse to say that some of them were the believers and others were not.


i hav highlighted in bold something intresting among the verses u have shown me.....and now there is another aayah in the same surah...i am talking about verse number 10:

Surely those who swear allegiance to you do but swear allegiance to Allah; the hand of Allah is above their hands.Therefore whoever breaks (his faith), he breaks it only to the injury of his own soul, and whoever fulfills what he has covenanted with Allah, He will grant him a mighty reward. [QURAN 48:10]

if Allah knew what was in their hearts...then y is there an exception for those who break the pledge....did the sahaaba keep on the the pledge(which was not to run away from a battle)...dint they turn back at hunayn and khybar???

When Ali and Abu Bakr { RA } cleared there differences, then who are we to prolong it.


well then if this is the case: If Hadhrath Ali (as) had no differences with the first three Khalifa's why did he not participate in any battles that took place during their reigns, particularly when Jihad against the Kuffar is deemed a major duty upon the Muslim? If he did not view it as necessary at that time, then why did he during his own Khilafath whilst in his fifties unsheathe his sword and participate in the battles of Jamal, Sifeen and Naharwan?

Everyone knows the fact that Imam Ali (a.s) is the most brave and powerful among the ummah wen it comes to Jihad as can be seen in Khybar...


Secondly, there are many verses in the quran which talks about Material inheiritence by the Prophets:

Allah (swt) declares in Surah Naml 027.016:

And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from Allah.)"
Al-Qur'an, Surah 27, Ayah 16,

for the tafseer of this aayah we read in a sunni tafseer called Tafseer Kashaf:

"Waris refers to Kingdom and Prophethood"
Tafseer Kashaf, Volume 3 page 140


Fatima knew nothing of this saying of her father. She thought she was perfectly right in her claim. This created a little bitterness in her mind, and the mind of her husband, Ali. The hypocrites were quick to add to the misunderstanding.


So now u r telling me that h.z Fatima (a.s) dint know that the Prophet (a.s) does not inheirit..are u accusing the prophet (a.s) of not doing his work right...because it is not important for abu bakr to know this fact...but if this is tru, then Fatima (s.a) shud hav known it...

instead it is a well known fact that she was not happy with Abu Bakr till the time she died....

Shahih Bukhari (Vol 5 book 57 hadeeth 61) it says:

"Allahs apostle said: Fatima is a part of me and he who makes her angry makes me angry"


But Abu Bakr and Ali were equally unselfish. During Fatima's illness, Abu Bakr himself went to see her and cleared away the misunderstanding. After her death, Ali went to Abu Bakr and said, "O Siddiq, we admit your superiority. We do not envy the position Allah has given you. But as relatives of the holy Prophet, we thought Caliphate to be our right.You had taken away this right of ours."



i dont knw where did u bring the above quotation...but r u trying to say that Imam Ali (a.s) was lying??? u r accusing someone who has been garunteed Paradise (as u all say) of a lie??

You can check the authenticity of those hadiths quoted in my first post. Hope and pray Allah swt to bless us with this wealth of love for the companions of the Prophets.


i dont need to chk the authenticity of such hadith...beacuse I dont take religion from those books...Its just to show u some facts bro...Even if i did take my religion from those books...i would reject such a hadith beacuse its been narrated hy Aysha, who was an enemy of Imam Ali (a.s) as we can see in battle of Jamal...

well there are loads of topics discussed on the same thread..i wud request u not to debate jamal with me...stik to the topic which we have chosen....

May Allah give all of us the wealth of love of his prophets (a.s) and their true companions...who were steadfast after the Prophets (a.s) died...

Edited by asda - 08 September 2008 at 6:35am
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 08 September 2008 at 11:20pm
 
  ( My old comments are in pink. The present comments are in blue)
 
Originally posted by asda

Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem..
Salaams...

It is an old shameful attitude of the Shias. That is all.


hey...i can hav such hard attitute towards u...but i believe in facts...and just not accept something just because i like....does this show ure incapability to defend some of the acts of the sahaaba after the prophet (a.s)....


Yes, it is talking about the Ist Khalifah and the second and the third Khalifah. Khalifah Raashid is always made by Allah. The verse says that Allah will surely establish Khilafat. And He did it. You are opposing Allah's Will
  I had to say the harsh words because the Shias Do come back to abuse the most senior members of the Ummah. 


i asked u simple question....and u dint even try to answer it.....look at the Quranic words:

Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors. [QURAN 24:55>

i ask: Give me an example from the HISTORY OF ISLAM WHERE A KHALIPHA OF GOD WAS MADE AS (U SAY) IT WAS MADE IN SAQIFA????....the history of islam starts from Hazrat Adam (a.s)....just give me example of one caliph of Allah!!!!!
 asda, please be easy. I am only talking about Khilafat e rashidah, i.e. upto the khailaft of Hazrat Ali r.a. After that the system had changed to kingship.. You tell me , Do you deny that Allah established Khilafat after the prophets. Allah says, he did it. In what way is different. In whatever way it was done, it was done in all times.
 
 This was a different matter. It is told in the Quran about Momineen "Their  important matters are decided by mutual consultation." That means Shoora. So the Khilafat was established by consultation and Hazrat Abu bakr was elected as the first Imam i.e. Ist Khalifah. And so on.

There will be stability in Madinah (the capital) then there will be stability in the rest of the places. You wanted to destroy the peace of the state of Madinah with your plan of non-election of a Khalifah? The head of state has to be elected immediately and the man who dies may not even be buried until a new head (Imam) is elected.


you forgot abu bakr's war on the ppl who dint give zakah to the new ruler....while the quran clearly states:
"There is no compulsion in religion"....was this peace....was this a caliph accepted the whole ummah as u claim??

 Now you are crying about Zakat. It appears that you are against Zakat too. What can I do? You have a different religion. Then if people skip the prayer, you would like freedom for them too. That no tolerance has other meaning. Not the one you are demanding. I am sure Hazrat Ali never used that menaing when he was the Khalifah.

Where is it in this verse that others will not be forgiven. You are putting or suggesting some words for nothing. Hazrat Ali is included in these people. What is your problem? Why you are adding words in the verse which are not there? The verse says " Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him ..... " Allah has remembered them with good words. Those who are with the prophet s.a.w.s. But you seem to disagree....[/QUOTE]

acha....read the words of Allah (s.w.t):
"Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward"

doesnt this clearly states that there r 2 groups among the sahaaba...for if one genrally says: among u there r ppl who are gud...doesnt that mean the rest are bad????
 
 I will have to check the reference. There is no problem in the verse. You seem to have the problem with it. You are making two groups, catching on the straws..  I am sure youare wrong. It is a special style of the Quran which is not being utilised in above translation. give ref.

[QUOTE]We do not soon read that. That is also a hadith which is fabricated. Because it puts a bad shape on Fatima, that she was greedy. The story seems to be fabricated. The reasons will be clear later.
In a verse of the Quran, in chapter 33 near the end, it is written that those who displease ( and hurt) the believers, they are cursed by Allah. there is la'anat on them from Almighty Allah
.[QUOTE]

  is claiming ones own right called GREED????? ok now for example..someone goes and robs ure house (GOD FORBID!!)...and u go to the athorities to claim ure stuff....IS THIS GREED???? ARE U ACCUSING THE DOUGHTER OF THE PROPHET (A.s) OF GREED WEN SHE CAME TO CLAIM HER OWN RIGHTS????? (i am not shouting....just highlighting some facts and questions for u to answer).....
 There was no such case that you are building. The Caliph Abubakr r.a. did the right thing. You are only making up a case on the basis of some doubtful Ahadith. I am sure you are all wrong. There was a court system in the country. Why did not hazrat Ali, being more knowledgable, accompany fatima in this case. Why did notthe people of Madinah interfere in the matter. Youthink they were all ignorant and no one new the rules.
 
 Was Fatima the only Heir? The Shias have a funny way. They think that prophet had no children except Fatima. The prophet had no surviving son. And the Shias say that fatima was the only daughter. That means the prophet had only one child i.e. a dughter. How come?
 

secondly...just because u dont like the hadith....that does not make it fabricated....surly..."those who displease the believers, they are cursed by Allah (s.w.t)"....wasnt H.z Fatima (s.a) a believer....infact she was the BEST OF THEM!!!
  You cannot say that she was the best one. Otherwise she would not have gone asking for fadak and would not have argued with Abubakr, the elected head of State. She was very good, no doubt.
 
 I feel that she did not do anything bad. The Shias are building a case to downplay the great Sahabah. Hazrat Ali and Fatima and Hasan and Hussain were allwelland happy under the Khalifas. There was no conflict.
 
 But at the time of Hazrat Ali, after the Khalifah (Uthman)  had been killed in the capital, there was no peace and no truth. So all types of stories can be fabricated.
[quote]
i hav thrown u a bunch of questions...will u still ignore them like the ones u ignored on the taraaweeh thread??
 
 No I did not do any such thing. You please go and read my replies n the Traveeh section. All is there. Rather I have aske dyou some specific questions and I need a reply to those questions from you. Then picture will become very clear about Traveeh too.
 
 You keep on sending your points. We will consider them. But do not forget about Sunnat. Sunnat is before any Hadith. Do not say that Sunat cannot be proved without Hadith. Welcome.


Edited by minuteman - 08 September 2008 at 11:29pm
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 09 September 2008 at 6:24am
Salaam

I had to say the harsh words because the Shias Do come back to abuse the most senior members of the Ummah.

did i abuse any of them???....shud i talk with u like this just because many sunnis say that shias are waajibul qatl...or shud i talk with u like this just because u accuse the prophet (a.s) of making mistakes??

see y do u treat everybody with the same attitude...and this is how hate and frustration increases....this forum is made to discuss...and not to accuse anybody...or use such harsh language..or wat is the use of this forum....like hooligans one shud go out and start fighting....we shud all treat each other in a respectable manner...



asda, please be easy. I am only talking about Khilafat e rashidah, i.e. upto the khailaft of Hazrat Ali r.a. After that the system had changed to kingship.. You tell me , Do you deny that Allah established Khilafat after the prophets. Allah says, he did it. In what way is different. In whatever way it was done, it was done in all times.

yah...Khilafat of Allah (s.w.t) did exist..with Imam Ali (a.s)....but people dint accept it...as was the case with h.z Harun (a.s)....they disobeyed him...He was the Caliph of Allah (s.w.t)as well....and the khilafah Rashidiyah is man made khilafah...


my question still remains....


Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors. [QURAN 24:55>

i ask: Give me an example from the HISTORY OF ISLAM WHERE A KHALIPHA OF GOD WAS MADE AS (U SAY) IT WAS MADE IN SAQIFA????....the history of islam starts from Hazrat Adam (a.s)....just give me example of one caliph of Allah!!!!!


i can give u a simple example of Hazrat Harun (a.s) being appointed by Allah (s.w.t)

وَوَاعَدْنَا مُوسَى ثَلاَثِينَ لَيْلَةً وَأَتْمَمْنَاهَا بِعَشْرٍ فَتَمَّ مِيقَاتُ رَبِّهِ أَرْبَعِينَ لَيْلَةً وَقَالَ مُوسَى لأَخِيهِ هَارُونَ اخْلُفْنِي فِي قَوْمِي وَأَصْلِحْ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ سَبِيلَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ {142}
And We appointed with Musa a time of thirty nights and completed them with ten (more), so the appointed time of his Lord was complete forty nights, and Musa said to his brother Haroun: Take my place among my people, and act well and do not follow the way of the mischief-makers. (QURAN 7:142)

now u will say that H.z Harun(a.s) died before H.z Musa(a.s)..and so this is not an appropriate example...well the fact is....he was appointed directly by Allah (s.w.t)...and not elected by ppl...and thats the point i am trying to show...it is how a khalifa is appointed thats important...

so if khilafat e rashida is kilafatullah (maazallah), then give me one example from the History of Islam...simple..








Now you are crying about Zakat. It appears that you are against Zakat too. What can I do? You have a different religion. Then if people skip the prayer, you would like freedom for them too. That no tolerance has other meaning. Not the one you are demanding. I am sure Hazrat Ali never used that menaing when he was the Khalifah.


crying??? well do u wanna debate like proper human beings??? pls do so if u can....and...i was just trying to show u that the whole "ummah" dint accept him as caliph....








I will have to check the reference. There is no problem in the verse. You seem to have the problem with it. You are making two groups, catching on the straws.. I am sure youare wrong. It is a special style of the Quran which is not being utilised in above translation. give ref.

look at the words i have highlighted....
what can i say on ure assumptions.....are u practicing black magic??
"Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward" [Quran 48:29]


well the translation says it clearly....its crystal clear bro...








There was no such case that you are building. The Caliph Abubakr r.a. did the right thing. You are only making up a case on the basis of some doubtful Ahadith. I am sure you are all wrong. There was a court system in the country.Why did not hazrat Ali, being more knowledgable, accompany fatima in this case.Why did notthe people of Madinah interfere in the matter. Youthink they were all ignorant and no one new the rules.


read Imam Ali (a.s)'s position:

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349

Umar's Words:
When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadhrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest.



Was Fatima the only Heir?


was the hujra's(those small houses)of the Prophet (a.s)'s wife taken away??

They think that prophet had no children except Fatima.

This is wat the majority accepts....but still there are variations in opinion...if u dint knw....

How come?

u dont make sense here...read ure whole paragraph....u r just moving in rounds...


You cannot say that she was the best one. Otherwise she would not have gone asking for fadak and would not have argued with Abubakr, the elected head of State. She was very good, no doubt.



How can u lower her postion...
That Prophet of Islam described Fatima as follows: "The leader of all the ladies of Paradise." (Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 4, p.819.)

and i may remind u something:
وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى {3}
[Quran 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.

إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى {4}
[Quran 53:4] It is naught but revelation that is revealed,


and the Prophet (a.s) has also said:
"Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry." (Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 5, p. 61.)

and i want to again remind u:

3}
[Quran 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.

إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى {4}
[Quran 53:4] It is naught but revelation that is revealed,



wsalaam


Edited by asda - 09 September 2008 at 7:38am
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bullet Posted: 09 September 2008 at 8:34pm

 

 asda, you have differing knowledge about Islam. You say that the first three Khalifas were elected by men and not appointed by Allah. But Hazrat Ali only was appointed as Khalifah by Allah. 

 Q1. Can you show me how Hazrat Ali was appointed by Allah?

 Your knowledge about Hazrat harun is also very weak. He was the Khalifah only during a short time when Hazrat Musa went on the mount. He was not a Khalifah for all times.

 Similarly, hazrat Ali was made a Khalifah for a short time during a war. That was not for ever more. That was when the prophet and Abubakr and Hazrat Umar and Uthman had all gone away from the city of Madinah.

 Hazrat Ali also wanted to go with the war party and did not want to remain behind. The prophet consoled him with the words that he would be representing him in the city. So hazrat Ali was left behind to look after the ladies and children. Some one was needed in the city in the absence of the very senior important people.

 That Khilafat of Hazrat Ali finished as soon as the prophet and senior Sahabah came back from their mission.

 I will post further about your ideas. No offence. I hope you will not give me any chance to use any harsh words. It all depends on you. The moment I detect that you have used any bad word about the senior Sahabah or about the mothers of the faithful then I will check you.

 So I have only replied to your Harun statements and about the short time Khilafat of Hazrat Ali. I had informed you that the matters are decided by Mushawarat (consultation). There is no family affair in Islam. Otherwise it will be like did Hazrat Mua'awiyah that he made his son Yazeed the Khalifah.

 Q 2.  Do you want  a similar system in Islam?  That is the system of the kings. Or the Hindus have a caste system. The son of a Brahmin is a Brahmin, a sacred cow? (more later when I read your reply carefully)



Edited by minuteman - 09 September 2008 at 8:37pm
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seekshidayath
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bullet Posted: 09 September 2008 at 10:19pm
 
Minuteman lets not proceed with the discussions further. WHat's the use of the discussion, wherein the starter of the topic, is rejecting hadiths just because it is of Ayesha RA, whom they considers an enemy.  {as posted in his post}. Why did you then use that hadith in your earlier post which was narrated by Ayesha RA ?
 
 Did n't you read that slandering any companion of the Prophets is wrong ? Is that not enough for you ?
 
 Anyways, we shall proceed and reply your posts, only when you answer Bro. Andalus's questions. Else these debate would lead nowhere except, disturbing peace of this site.
 
 
 
 


Edited by seekshidayath - 09 September 2008 at 10:25pm
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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bullet Posted: 10 September 2008 at 2:17am
br minuteman...i will reply u later as ure post needs time...

Minuteman lets not proceed with the discussions further. WHat's the use of the discussion, wherein the starter of the topic, is rejecting hadiths just because it is of Ayesha RA, whom they considers an enemy. {as posted in his post}.


well in matters related to Maula Ali (a.s), one cannot take the words of his enemies...and if the truth is otherwise, then u can prove it to me on another thread..i can seriosly consider ure views..

Did n't you read that slandering any companion of the Prophets is wrong ? Is that not enough for you ?


i have already given an answer to u...


Else these debate would lead nowhere except, disturbing peace of this site.


well if this is the case...then i challenge u...show me one sentence where i have even said that sunnis have fake/vague/pontless/sensless etc etc (and other harsh words) belief.......i have never been harsh on u all...seeing the fact that these forums are made for a fact to discuss...thats it..and if i am anywhere SPOILING THE PEACE on this forum...then give me one sentence (from my post)where i hav acted rude...

on br andalus's post...i will do that next..and then reply to br.minuteman
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 10 September 2008 at 3:02am
This is a strawman and a willfull distortion of the topic. Your claim is not a "strong point" of Sunnis which you are trying to distort.


thats a general fact...

Another strawman, for thinking that the companions were divine would be shirk. Hardly a "strong point" from Muslims. As far as being sent by Allah, I would love to know just how you have ascertained the mind of Allah and His relationship with mankind. I am guessing you do not have any real answers to my ojections and your points were just part of your hyporbole and over editorializing of the topic.


if the sahaaba dint exist...wud prophet muhammad (a.s)'s mission had failed??u knw the answer..


Thats quite a sweeping generalization. The topic of the companions is not as simplistic, nor is the view of Muslims so simplistic of the topic. A certain amount of adhab is used when approaching any of them, which does not mean that adhab for all is equivalent to worshiping for a few, many, most, or any.


well its not genralized???then we stand at the same point...cuz above i have been debating about the fact that all companions in "general" was not on haq...


Adhab and piety are not the same things. Instead of making claims which such gaping generalizations, why not clarify your stance.


wat clarification do u need...plz clarify...


And you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example.

You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".[/QIAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example.

You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".UPTAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example.

You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established"


well look at the next aayah..



Another complex question (a fallacy), please establish that every person that came in contact with the prophet is a saint, from the position of Muslims. The rest of your question is perplexing. Please clarify.


not every person...but as u say...all the sahaaba has the "as-sakinah"...


how are you able to read God's mind to know who He likes or does not like?

now u r making it complex...well the quran is the best way know Allah (s.w.t)...tho he is above our understanding...but we can upto a certain level.



This begs the question: So what? How does this prove your sect's basic claims? I will answer for you: It does not without some manipulation and supposition.


the aayah is just an example of the point made above it...and u have taken it seperately..
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