Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
Message Icon Topic: Abrogation? Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 15 Next >>
Author Message
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1783
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Topic: Abrogation?
    Posted: 14 August 2008 at 11:12am
I keep coming across the concept of "abrogation", which alleges that certain verses can abrogate (supercede, nullify) other verses which were revealed earlier.  Abrogation is used to resolve apparent contradictions in the Quran, and is based on al-Bakara 2:106: "Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?"
 
Mostly I see this on anti-Islamic sites, but they do seem to reference genuine Muslim scholars.  The only Islamic sources I have seen condemn abrogation as unnecessary and unworthy of the Quran, which is perfect and contains no contradictions; but these are usually "Quran-only" web sites so I'm not sure if they are representative.
 
Is abrogation a mainstream Islamic teaching, or a discredited heresy, or what?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
rami
Male  Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 01 March 2000
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2550
Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 14 August 2008 at 10:29pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Hi ron,

When allah revealed the Quran he revealed it over a period of 23 years, in this period the laws [as i understand it] where revealed in a way to move people away from certain behavior or attitudes towards things. It wasnt simply a matter of Allah said this therefor do it, eg's include alcohol it was first revealed "dont aproach prayer while drunk" then later on alcohol altogether was banned. So what of the verse dont aproach prayer while drunk can we now say [since we are now reading both commands between the same book covers] you can drink as long as you dont go to prayer drunk?

the issue may seem the way it is becouse the verses of the quran where later on compiled into a book and people now read the Quran like they would expect to read anyother book not keeping in mind that esentially it is simply a collection of verses put together into book form but it wasnt revealed as a book in one time period. 

It should be fair to say any person wishing to refute the Quran and claiming they are doing it in an ethical and scientific manner, must consider this point as key to understanding the Quran.

Question:

I have heard from many sources, one of them is not Muslim, who say that what is revealed in the later sura's in the Qur'an supersede the earlier surahs. When I heard this I was extremely skeptical, however I thought I would ask you sidi just to confirm this...

Answer:

In%20the%20Name%20of%20Allah,%20Most%20Gracious,%20Most%20Merciful

Among the verses in the Quran containing orders or laws there are verses that abrogate verses previously revealed and acted upon. These abrogating verse are called _nasikh_ and those whose validity they terminate are called _mansukh_.

The common notion of abrogation, that is, canceling of one law or code by another, is based on the idea that a new law is needed because of a mistake or shortcoming in the previous one. It is clearly inappropriate to ascribe a mistake in law-making to God, Who is perfect, and whose creation admit of no flaws.

However, in the Quran, the abrogating verses mark the end of the validity of the abrogated verses because their heed and effect was of a temporary or limited nature. In time the new law appears and announces the end of the validity of the earlier law. Considering that Quran was revealed over a period of twenty-three years in ever-changing circumstances, it is not difficult to imagine the necessity of such laws.

It is in this light that we should regard the wisdom of abrogation within the Quran:

"And when we put a revelation in place of (another) revelation and Allah knows best what He reveals -- they say: you are just inventing it. Most of them do not know. Say: The Holy Spirit (Gibril) has revealed it from your hand with truth and as a guidance and good news for those who have surrendered (to God)" [16:101-102]

It is a science on its own in Islam to know the Nasikh and Mansukh.

Hajj Gibril




Edited by rami - 14 August 2008 at 10:34pm
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
IP IP Logged
minuteman
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 25 March 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1642
Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 14 August 2008 at 10:56pm
 
  Please remember there is no Nasikh or mansookh in the Quran. There is no verse abrogated or abrogating verse. If there is any then it may please (both) be presented here on the forum.
 
 About Alcohol, there are three verses all still valid.
 
 1. In the drinking (wine)  and in gambling there are advantages and losses for men. But the losses (disadvantages) are more than the advantages....
 
 2. O, Believers, do not go near prayer when you are drunk......
 
 3. Surely the wine and gambling are the dirty works of the devil. So keep away from them.... So that you may achieve comfort....
 
 Please note that all the above verses are valid even today... Tell us which is abrogated.. Welcome,,,, more later.....
If any one is bad some one must suffer
IP IP Logged
rami
Male  Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 01 March 2000
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2550
Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2008 at 1:22am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Br there is a difference of opinion among some scholar as to whether these verses actually abrogate other verses. And there certainly is an Islamic science about this matter so denying that it even exists is ridiculous.

I dont know accurate this is in presenting the views of the hanafi madhhab, its opinionated and draws many conclusions about the significance [or otherwise] of various subject matter rather than simply prsenting facts or events....but the point is made i think.

Hanafi Doctrine of Naskh (Abrogation)

Hamdard Islamicus, Vol. 22 (1999) No. 3
by Dr. M. Akram Rana

In the usual classification of Muslim sciences, the usul al-fiqh isgenerally defined as the science of the proofs which lead to the establishment of legal standard.(1)

The usul had been the subject of study by jurists as attested by the fact that Abu Yusuf discusses certain aspects of it in his Kitab al-Kharaj(2) and Shaybani is reported to have written a book on the usul.(3) But this term had not yet acquired the technical meaning of a science dealing specifically with the sources of Islamic law. The Risalah,(4) a unique work in the literature of Islamic law, gave Shafi’i a name as the founder of the science of usul al-fiqh. Shafi’i was followed in his monumental work on the principles of jurisprudence by a Hanafi jurist, al-Karkhi, the teacher of al-Jassas. Although his treatment was very sketchy, it was a fruitful start in the field concerned.(5) Al-Karkhi was followed by Abu Bakr al-Jassas who wrote a comprehensive book about usul al-fiqh in which he explained the views of his teacher al-Karkhi.(6) The Usul al-Jassas, as a matter of fact, is the first systematic attempt ever made to describe the principles of Muslim jurisprudence. The late Hanafi works on the usul and particularly on al-Nasikh wa’l Mansukh give us clues that most of the ideas were borrowed from the Usul al-Jassas.(7) Mustafa Zaid,(8) an Egyptian Writer on the subject of al-Nasikh wa'l-Mansukh, states that definition of naskh by Jassas was followed for five centuries. Jassas included in his Usul the views who do and do not believe in the theory of Naskh. The views of his fellow Hanafites like 'Isa b. Aban are also explained. Further, he presented Karkhi's views and remarked that Karkhi's opinions were clearer than those of 'Isa b. Aban's.(9) Records show that Jassas was an exponent of the Hanafi school and its acknowledged Usuli. The production of the Usul al-Jassas was intended to verify the fiqh of Imam Abu Hanifah. Jassas endeavoured to document the Hanafi views in the light of verses of the Qur'an and the ahadith of the Prophet (P.B.H.).

Abu Hanifah may here be mentioned as the founder of the system. He acquired much of his knowledge from Hammad b. Abi Sulaymain who is regarded as the pioneer of the Hanafi school. The fiqh of the Iraqi school was supported and established by the great pupils of Imam Abu Hanifah i.e., Abu Yusuf and Shaybani. At the request of caliph Harun al-Rasyid, the former compiled his Kitab al-Kharaj which, however, covers much wider ground than is indicated by its title. However, little is learnt about naskh from the book. Abu Yusuf maintains that the Sunnah can override the Qur'an. The abrogation of the Qur'anic injunction of ablution (al-Qur'an, V:6) by the wiping of the shoes is a case in point.(10) Shaybani, like his companion Abu Yusuf, did not discuss the principles of abrogation in detail although some instances of naskh are discussed in his works. Shaybani reported that the Prophet (P.B.H.) launched a campaign against. Al-Ta'if at the beginning of the sacred month of Muharram and continued it for forty days until he captured the city in the month of Safar. Shaybani then produced a report on the authority of Mujahid in which he had declared that the prohibition of fighting during the sacred months was abrogated. According to Mujahid, the prohibition of fighting during the sacred months as laid down in the Qur'an (11:217) was abrogated by God in another verse: "slay the Pagans wherever you may find them" (al-Qur’an, IX:5). When Shaybani that fighting during the sacred months, according to Kalbi, was not abrogated, he remarked that Kalbi's opinion was not to be followed.(11) This sort of report tells us that there was no agreed theory of naskh. It also informs us that there seems to be no agreement among the jurists on the incidence of naskh. The earlier works on fiqh and hadith show that the word naskh was not used frequently. In the Muwatta’ of Imam Malik the word naskh is mentioned only once. It is held that the Qur'anic injunction which prescribed the precise shares of the listed relatives of a deceased person (al-Qur’an, IV:11-12) abrogated the Qur'anic injunction concerning wasiyyah (al-Qur’an, 11:180). Imam Malik also indicated that the Qur'an could abrogate the Sunnah, but in this case he used the word taraka. He agreed with his teacher Zuhri on the point that the later command abrogated the earlier.(12)

The works on al-Nasikh wa'l-Mansukh reveal that there was no single reported instance in which the Prophet (P.B.H.) said explicitly that a certain ruling was abrogated. Hamadhani, however, records two versions in which the name of the Prophet (P.B.H.) was involved. 'Urwah b. Zubayr said: "I testify that ray father told me that the Prophet (P.B.H.) would make a statement and after a while, he would abrogate it by means of another statement just as the Qur’an abrogates other parts of the Qur’an". Ibn Baylmani reported on the authority of his father that ibn 'Umar heard from the Prophet (P.B.H.) who had said: "Some parts of my ahadith abrogate other parts of my ahadith". Hamadhani, after recording this hadith, argued that no one except ibn Baylmani had narrated this ahadith. Further, ibn Baylmani was not a reliable person and his hadith must not be accepted.(13)

Shafi’i, according to Hamadhani, was the first scholar who systematised the principles of naskh.(14) This reveals that principles of naskh were in operation. Before we present the Hanafi's views on abrogation and the arguments against and for the theory concerned presented by Jassas and documented by Sarakhsi, it would be extremely useful to see how Jassas settles the meaning of naskh.

The scholars disagreed concerning the meaning of naskh. Some said: "it refers to naql (transfer). They say: nasakha al-Kitab (He copied the book i.e., he transferred what was in, the original copy to another copy). Others said: it refers to ibtal (nullification). They say: nasakhat al-shams al-zill, (the sun removed the shade). Some of them said: naskh is zalah. They refer to nasakhat al-rih al-athar (The wind obliterated the traces). These words are close in meaning, and whatever naskh may mean in the language, when it is used for the abrogation of the ruling, it is used metaphorically." Jassas rejects all the possible meaning of naskh, derived from secular usage whether it refers to naql, ibtal or iza1ah.(15)

Jassas restricts discussion of the word naskh to the Shari’ah usage and remarks: "Naskh is the declaration of the time of the particular ruling which we thought would remain for ever, but the second ruling made it clear that the time of the ruling was for a certain period and it was now no longer valid."(16)

This meaning of naskh had not been defined by any of Jassas' predecessors, therefore, he was the first person to declare that naskh in the Shari’ah is the bayan of the duration of the ruling. This definition of naskh was adopted by Jassas in order to refute the views of those Muslim scholars who held that naskh, never occurred in the Shari’ah. It was also to refute those Jews who had declared that Moses had informed them that the Shari’ah of the Torah and working on the day of the Sabbath would never be abrogated. Thirdly, it was to refute the views of Shafi’i who had maintained that only the Qur'an superseded the Qur'an; only the Sunnah superseded the Sunnah. He claimed that they did not and could not supersede each other. The function of the Sunnah, he believes, is to follow what is laid down in the Qur'an. In support of his view he listed some Qur’anic verses which according to him clearly spoke about the abrogation of the Qur'an alone.(17) He refers the Qur'anic verses X:15 and II:106. His opponents interpreted the same verses to indicate that the Qur’an could be abrogated by the Sunnah, and the Sunnah could be abrogated by the Qur'an. According to Jassas, the Qur’an (11:106) indicated that naskh occurred in the Qur'an. It did not indicate that the Qur'anic verse would be abrogated by a better or similar Qur'anic verse, since nothing prevented as from understanding from the verse that abrogation might be achieved by the Sunnah which was revealed to the Prophet (P.B.H.), and this, he argued, was the precise meaning of the verses: "we bring better or like thereof("18.) God meant to state that He would make a ruling superior to the first in the sense of its being easier to perform, or richer in terms of reward.(19)

Concerning those, Muslim scholars who did not believe in the theory of naskh, Jassas stated: "Some of the modern scholars have asserted that there was no naskh in the Shari’ah of our Prophet (P.B.H.). The occurrence of naskh was merely an indication that laws of the previous prophets (A.S.) were abrogated like the Sabbath and facing towards the East or the West while praying. They had argued that our Prophet (P.B.H.) was the last of the prophets (A S.) and his Shari’ah was confirmed and everlasting until the day of judgement. The man (Abu Muslim al-Isfahani) who had held this view was endowed with knowledge of rhetoric and Arabic language, but he had no knowledge of jurisprudence and the principles of jurisprudence. Although it could not be doubted that he was perfect in faith, he deviated greatly from the right path by declaring this dogma, since no one had reported this before him. Our predecessors and their successors understood from the religion of God, that numerous rulings were abrogated from it; and they have narrated these reports in a way which could not be questioned. There are general, specific, confirmed and obscure passages in the Qur'an. The one who rejected the occurrence of naskh, rejected all its general, specific, confirmed and obscure commands because these categories all arrived in the same manner. This man had derived from the abrogated and abrogating verses, judgements which were excluded from the interpretations of our early scholars I (Jassas) could not understand from where he had obtained his information. However, I maintain that he had used his own judgement leaving aside the reports of the salaf. The Prophet (P.B.H.) had said: 'whoever interpreted the Qur'an by using his personal opinion, certainly committed a sin'."

Jassas' opponents quoted several passages from the Qur’an in order to show that abrogation or withdrawal of the verses was impossible; God said: 'We have without doubt, sent down the Message (Qur’an) and We will surely guard it (from corruption) (al-Qur’an, XV:9). God also said: "It is for us to collect it (the Qur’an) and to promulgate it: But when We have promulgated it, follow then its recital (as promulgated). Nay, more it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear)" (al-Qur'an, LXXV:17-19). The explicit meaning of the verses require that God would guard the Qur’an for ever and its implication is for the whole ummah because He did not specify the time or generation. God said: "...it (the Qur'an), is no less a Message for all creatures". (al-Qur'an, XII:104). God in this verse informed us that the whole Qur'an is a Message (or Reminder) and it confirms that there would be no abrogation of the wording, because what is abrogated or forgotten and did not reach us, would not be considered as a Message for the people.

Jassas explains away these verses by simply saying that they refer to something else. The verses do not prevent the possibility of the ruling being abrogated. In a similar vein, the verses do not prevent the possibility of the wording being abrogated, said Jasas.

The view that these verses do not prevent us from talking about the abrogation of the wording or ruling might mean that Jassas was dealing with the two phenomena of the naskh:
  1. Naskh al-tilawah duna al-hukm and
  2. Naskh al-hukm duna al-tilawah.

The first is adopted by Jassas in order to establish the ruling of kaffarat al-yamin which is imposed upon a believer who fails to fulfil his deliberate oath. The Hanafis argued that three days should be consecutive, because the wording mutatabi’at had existed in 'Abd Allah b. Mas’ud's reading.(20) Jassas and Sarakhsi claim that the wording was withdrawn while the ruling remained valid.(21) Tabari was also of the view that the keeper of the fast who has to expiate for the breaking of an oath should fast for three continuous days. There is no disagreement among the scholars that this will suffice; others disagree as to whether fasting on non-consecutive days will suffice as expiation.(22)

Shifi’i’s predecessors, both Hanafis and Malikis, allowed the abrogation of the Sunnah by the Qur'an and vice verse. For Shafi'i who had interpreted the verse No. 106 of the Surah al-Baqarah (No. II) in the light of the verse No. 10 of the Surah Nahl (No. XVI), it was very difficult to adopt the procedure. Shafi'i succeeded in his attempts and secured the place of the Sunnah as a source of law and the danger which had threatened it was no longer felt. Even the followers of Shafi’i, let alone the Hanafis and Malikis, felt free to, revert to pre-Shafi'i thinking. Jassas, a Hanafi exponent, had no difficulty, therefore, in arguing that the Sunnah could be abrogated by the Qur’an and the Qur'an could be abrogated by the Sunnah. However, they could not be abrogated by khabr al-wahid. Further, khabr al-wahid as an addition to the Qur'an cannot be accepted.(23)

The naskh implied that the later command abrogated the earlier. Sarakhsi says: "The contradiction between the sources is impossible, since this would mean Divine fallibility; in actuality the contradiction is created by our human inability to estimate correctly the date of the texts. Once this has been done, however, the later abrogates the earlier."(24)

Among other principles of the naskh, one ofthem is very important. Once the date has been established, the nasikh verse or hadith became easy to be traced. Reports from the Companions and Successors are also decisive in the process of distinguishing the nasikh from the mansukh. This indicates that the naskh as a principle was alleged to have been accepted during the lifetime of the Companions. Jassas' final criterion for determining the nasikh from the mansukh isthat of ijma'. However, ijma' itself cannot abrogate the ruling of the Qur’an and the Sunnah.

The principles of naskh were justified by referring to the wording of the Qur'anic verses II:106 and XVI:101. The verses were shown to provide sufficient grounds for the occurrence of the naskh. The two modes: naskh al-hukm duna al-tilawah and naskh al-tilawah duna al-hukm were forwarded by the jurists as they were directly related to the fiqh. The naskh was alleged to have worked within and between the sources, as they could not solve the seeming contradiction, though being informed of the dictum: "al-jama' yamna' al-naskh" (reconciliation rules out naskh).(25)

~ Notes and References ~
  1. Encydopaedia of Islam (4 vols.), London, 1924, vol. 4, P. 1655.
  2. Abu Yusuf, Kitab al-Kharaj, Cairo, 1352/1933. According to Khatib Baghdadi, Abu Yusuf was the first person to compose a book on Usul Talrikh Baghdad (14 vols.), Beirut, n.d., vol. 4, p. 246. According to Schacht, "The statement of Khatib Baghdadi, that Abu Yusuf was the first to compose books on the theory Of law on the basis of the doctrine of Abu Hanifah, is not confirmed by the old sources". "The Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence", Oxford, 1929, p. 133.
  3. Ibn al-Nadim, al-Fihrist (2 vols.), London, 1970, vol. 1, p. 506.
  4. Shafi’i, al-Risalah, Cairo, 1358/1939.
  5. Saidullah Qazi, Principles of Muslim Jurisprudence, Lahore, 1981, p.2; al-Karakhi's Usul is published as a supplement to al-Dabusi's Tasts al-Nazar, Cairo, n.d., quoted by Shehaby, N., "'illah and Qiyas in early Islamic legal theory", J.A.O.S./, 1982, p. 27.
  6. Khudari, Usul al-fiqh, Beirut, 1969, p. 10.
  7. Sarakhsi, Usul (2 vol.), Haiderabad, 1372/1952, vol. 2, pp. 53-8.
  8. Zaid, M., al-Naskh fi’l Qur’an al-Karim (2 vols.), Cairo, 1383/1963, vol. 1, p. 82.
  9. Usul al-Jassas (Manuscript Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya, Cairo), fol. 139b.
  10. Abu Yusuf, Kitab al-Athar, Haiderabad, 1355/1936, p. 14; Jassas, Ahkam, vol. 2, p. 425.
  11. Shaybani, Kitab al-Siyar al-Kabir, ed., M. Khadduri, Maryland, 1966, p. 94.
  12. A. Rippen, Naskh al-Quran and the problem of early Tafsir Texts, Bulletin, S.O.A.S. Nov. 1984, p. 25; Malik, Muwa'tta’, vol. 1, p. 299, vol. 2, p. 765.
  13. Hamadhani, Al-I’tibar Matba'al-Andulus, Hims, 1386/1986, p. 50.
  14. Ibid.
  15. Usul al-Jassas, fol. 115a..
  16. Ibid.
  17. Al-Risalah, p. 106.
  18. Usu1 al-Jassas, fol. 152a.
  19. Ghazzali, Mustafa (2 vols.), Bulaq, 1322/1904, vol. 2, p. 125. Also see Tabari's Tafsir on al-Qur'an, II:106.
  20. Usul al-Jassas, fol. 127b.
  21. Usul, vol. 2, p. 81.
  22. Tafsir, vol. 7, p. 30.
  23. Usul al-Jassas, fol.143a.
  24. Usul, vol. 2, p. 12.
  25. I’tibar, p. 6.



Edited by rami - 15 August 2008 at 1:42am
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
IP IP Logged
Chrysalis
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 November 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2008 at 6:10am
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Br there is a difference of opinion among some scholar as to whether these verses actually abrogate other verses. And there certainly is an Islamic science about this matter so denying that it even exists is ridiculous.

I dont know accurate this is in presenting the views of the hanafi madhhab, its opinionated and draws many conclusions about the significance [or otherwise] of various subject matter rather than simply prsenting facts or events....but the point is made i think.
 
Rami:
 
Are you suggesting to Ron, that indeed certain verses have been abrogated? The Nasih, Mansukh etc can be applied to ahadith or even other matters of fiqh . . . But not the Qur'an.
 
For e.g Mutah . . . it was practiced by certain ppl during Prophet Muhammad's time, and until Allah revealed anything about it - he remained silent. But later, Mutah was abolished i.e. abrogated. This cannot be said about Quranic verses.
 
Like Minuteman correctly gives the e.g of Alcohol . . . all 3 verses are still just as valid, and do not at all contradict. In one place, Allah asks us to stay away from Alcohol - that is the preferred scenario. But does that mean no muslim will ever get drunk? No . . . which is why, the other verse still applies i.e. even if you are drunk, atleast do not approach prayer. No abrogation here. . . just 2 verses about Alcohol, essentially saying the same thing . . . but in different scenarios.
 
What you have said about the Quran bieng revealed in parts is correct, that was to allow ppl to make an easy, gradual transition . . . but strictly speaking in terms of the Quran, one cannot say that verses abrogate each other. (abrogate = annulment, abolition, cancellation)
 
PS: Since one is explaining to a non-muslim, I dont think going into detailed explanations like 'Hanafi Madhab' etc helps much. Its like, explaining astro-physics to a Marketing student. An exaggerated analogy, I agree. . . but u get my point. I think what Non-Muslims want to know through this question is whether or not they can deduce that the Quran has loopholes etc. Also, I appreciate the article you posted, but it can be tedious at times to go thru a lengthy document, esp when one is short of time, yet still wishes to know the crux. It would be nice if you could in a para or two just give the crux of the article . However, its very helpful to have the original doc/link there, for authencity/references sake . . . so do post a link. Jazakallah.


Edited by Chrysalis - 15 August 2008 at 6:17am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
IP IP Logged
rami
Male  Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 01 March 2000
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2550
Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2008 at 8:25pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Originally posted by Chrysalis

 
Rami:
 
Are you suggesting to Ron, that indeed certain verses have been abrogated? The Nasih, Mansukh etc can be applied to ahadith or even other matters of fiqh . . . But not the Qur'an.


Sister you as an unqualified person have no say in the matter, i am not presenting my personal views here but that of the madhhabs. The article clearly states that the Hanafi madhhab as well as the shafii madhhab and by extension the maliki as well as the hanbali [since as the article points out Imam shafii was the "father" of jurisprudence, although the opinions of the later two need to be confirmed] all believed this was the case but differed on its applicability.

Essentially its a matter of history now not personnel opinion. The article even points out the sahabah themselves believed this was the case...

"A text search in Sahih Bukhari turned this up:
حدثنا عياش: حدثنا عبد الأعلى: حدثنا عبيد الله، عن نافع، عن ابن عمر رضي الله عنهما:
قرأ: {فدية طعام مسكين}. قال: هي منسوخة
Ibn Umar Radhi Allahu `anhuma recited (surat ul baqarah 184) and said: This is mansookh" [i didnt do the search].
 
For e.g Mutah . . . it was practiced by certain ppl during Prophet Muhammad's time, and until Allah revealed anything about it - he remained silent. But later, Mutah was abolished i.e. abrogated. This cannot be said about Quranic verses.
 
Why?

i think the only issue here is your perception of it being some sort of weakness or evidence of fallibility, its no more so than allah commanding something in the Bible or Torah then abrogating it in the Quran. Did he make a mistake? couldn't he make up his mind the first time around?....etc

authubillah.

The Quran isnt simply a book and you need to understand that sister, you are objectifying the issue rather than looking at it's reality.

Like Minuteman correctly gives the e.g of Alcohol . . . all 3 verses are still just as valid, and do not at all contradict.


This is only your assumption that abrogation means contradiction, when you look at the reality of what was occurring on the ground [as the military adage goes] it is a totally different picture.

In one place, Allah asks us to stay away from Alcohol - that is the preferred scenario. But does that mean no muslim will ever get drunk? No . . . which is why, the other verse still applies i.e. even if you are drunk, atleast do not approach prayer.


Sister you know as well as i do that the context of the verse 'do not approach prayer while drunk' was prior to alcohol being banned and clearly implied you can still drink, then latter on Allah said dont drink at all, yes it is still valid and applicable [in terms of the wisdom and knowledge it contains] no one is arguing that but it isnt simply a matter of Allah contradicting himself he was taking people away from something not good for them step by step similar to how alcoholism is treated today.

That is the reality on the ground, you have to see it as if Allah is talking to the people and helping them not some words in a book.

What you have said about the Quran bieng revealed in parts is correct, that was to allow ppl to make an easy, gradual transition . . . but strictly speaking in terms of the Quran, one cannot say that verses abrogate each other. (abrogate = annulment, abolition, cancellation)
 
well we can discuss the use of the word abrogation to represent naskh wa mansukh and say something is lost in translation i wont argue with you there since it is generally the case with all phrases being translated into English but naskh does exist although in the arabic sense Smile

PS: Since one is explaining to a non-muslim, I dont think going into detailed explanations like 'Hanafi Madhab' etc helps much. Its like, explaining astro-physics to a Marketing student. An exaggerated analogy, I agree. . . but u get my point. I think what Non-Muslims want to know through this question is whether or not they can deduce that the Quran has loopholes etc. Also, I appreciate the article you posted, but it can be tedious at times to go thru a lengthy document, esp when one is short of time, yet still wishes to know the crux. It would be nice if you could in a para or two just give the crux of the article . However, its very helpful to have the original doc/link there, for authencity/references sake . . . so do post a link. Jazakallah.


Thank you for taking the time to explain the matter usually people just scream and shout at you here LOL

I agree the article is in depth but i dont doubt ron's intellectual capacity to understand most of it, i wouldn't have posted this had i thought he wasn't an educated person. Also i think there is far to much dumbing down of Islam to the point where the dumbed down version people are now claiming is the norm and no one is being exposed to its real depth, so even if people don't understand this they should at least see that Islamic scholarship has real depth and isn't as simplistic as 'this hadith said this' ergo Islam says what the hadith says and everyone is capable of deducing fatwah from the quran and sunnah.

You also could have waited untill you had time to read it LOL



Edited by rami - 15 August 2008 at 8:34pm
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
IP IP Logged
minuteman
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 25 March 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1642
Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2008 at 9:19pm
 
 Please indicate one or two verses of the Quran which are now abrogated, which stand abrogated. Then this matter will be discussed in some detail. Until then nobody will believe the abrogation story.  The Madhahib may have discussed the subject of abrogation  and I have myself read one book (long ago) on this subject by Ibne Hazm r.a.
 
  Let us see even one verse which is in the Quran and considered abrogated. Thanks. And let us not get hot when discussing this sensitive subject. It is of the prime importance for all of us. So go gently over it. More thanks in advance.


Edited by minuteman - 15 August 2008 at 9:20pm
If any one is bad some one must suffer
IP IP Logged
rami
Male  Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 01 March 2000
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2550
Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2008 at 9:27pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheen

when the argument is presented that the hanafi and shafii madhhab hold such a belief you as an individual no longer have the luxury of calling the issue a story.

A simple question br, do you fail to see the significance of the hadith found in sahih bukhari of ibn umar?

i quoted the arabic so if you cant read it it literally says "mansookh".


Edited by rami - 15 August 2008 at 9:31pm
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
IP IP Logged
Page  of 15 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com