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Islam for non-Muslims
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 11 September 2008 at 9:46pm
 
 The belief in the divinity of Jesus was an extra deed she was doing, an extra load she was carrying. The heavens or hell is not decided on just one thing. She was a christian. I hope she was a good person, believing in God and doing good deeds, if she was not carryng a hachet against Islam, she may be forgiven the other faults.
 
 When Quran says there is a reward for the believing doing good persons, it says there is a reward. But there are many stages of the rewards. It is written in the Quran that there is a great reward for some other deeds, much greater, (Ajr an Azeema). Be sure, in Islam hell is not for ever.
 
 So your grand, if she has done some good work, she will come out of hell quite soon. Don, it is a sin of the highest order to associate any one with God. You people call every one a born sinner. But you do not know about the real sin. That is association of creatures with God. It is written that all sins may be forgiven but the sin of Shirk will not be forgiven.
 
 The Quranic message has come for all the people. The message has been passed to the christians too. If they continue on their old way an do not pick a fight with Islam then they may be forgiven for ignoring the most important command (even most important by the Jewish ten Commandments). So do not worry about others. You think about yourself. Are you honestly doing what is required by your religion?
 
 Are you a peaceful person? Are you always ready to downpaly the teachings of Islam? You know better what you are doing. You will be dealt with accordingly. We are not God Almighty. We cannot decide. But we can tell what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is bad. The real good high grade reward cannot be achieved without belief in Muhammad.
 
 According to Islam, the denial of even one messenger of God (whoever he may be) is a great sin.


Edited by minuteman - 11 September 2008 at 9:51pm
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 12 September 2008 at 5:47am
Just to clarify - the very beadt reward is paradise.  Are any other levels of reward mentioned in the Quran?
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2008 at 2:55am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Chrysalis

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Please, minuteman, just answer the question: Is my grandmother in heaven or hell?
 
Like we Muslims like to say Ron, 'Walla hu alam' i.e. Only Allah knows.
(What do I have to do to get a straight answer from you guys???)
 
Okay, let me rephrase:  Would someone like my grandmother, a devout Christian who believes in the divinity of Jesus, be in heaven or hell?
 
Hmmm, I dont know how to make it any straighter, Ron. As unbelievable as it may sound, Human biengs do not have any knowledge of the unseen, and cannot predict the future, nor the fate or anyone.  
Like it or not, such are the limitations of bieng mortal. Any human post-prophetic times, who who claims knowledge about the future/fate is loony.
 
No muslim, can tell you where your grandmother , or someone like her will end up. God only knows. Hopefully we'll all get the answer to our Question on the day of judgement. Until then, there is nothing we can do.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2008 at 4:48am

That should have said the best reward is paradise.

halfalife  Good example, I understand in that case - is that in the Quran, hadith or just your example?

 
 
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2008 at 12:01pm

Originally posted by minuteman

When Quran says there is a reward for the believing doing good persons, it says there is a reward. But there are many stages of the rewards. It is written in the Quran that there is a great reward for some other deeds, much greater, (Ajr an Azeema). Be sure, in Islam hell is not for ever.

Well, that at least is an answer, though a rather foolish one in my opinion.  What kind of schizophrenic God would send good people to hell and make them suffer for an arbitrary time, and then transfer them to heaven?  What kind of elitist God would maintain a class system in heaven, with a hierarchy of stages and unequal rewards?  That's exactly the kind of stuff that creates resentment and strife here on earth.

Is there anything in the Quran that supports these notions, or is this something that Muhammad added?

Originally posted by Chrysalis

Hmmm, I dont know how to make it any straighter, Ron. As unbelievable as it may sound, Human biengs do not have any knowledge of the unseen, and cannot predict the future, nor the fate or anyone.

Then what use is the Quran?  2:62 says that someone like my grandmother will "have her reward" in the afterlife.  3:85 says someone like her will be "one of the losers".  Minuteman apparently has convinced himself that there is no contradiction betwen those two statements, that one can be a "loser" in heaven and/or be "rewarded" in hell.  What do you say?

Like it or not, such are the limitations of bieng mortal. Any human post-prophetic times, who who claims knowledge about the future/fate is loony.

It's interesting that anyone after Muhammad is automatically labeled "loony", but Muhammad himself is believed without question.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2008 at 5:06am
 
 Ron, you are an atheist, a disbeliever in God. You have no religion and no religious knowledge. You have no religious book of your own. Your comments are your own. Your Grand maa, you said was a believer (say a christian). She will be well off if she had done good deeds. That is vide verse 2:62.
 
 But your case is different. You are a disbeliever in God. You will have no hope of any kind even if you do good deeds. That is by the verse 2:62 (You have no cover) and also by the verse 3:85 your mission will not be accepted. In order to achieve anything at all, the first step is to believe that there is a God, Creator of all.
 
 If there is no belief then all your deeds are null and void. So the best for you is to believe. Become a Hindu or a christian or a Jew or a Muslim. At present you re benefitting from the two great attributes of Allah, those are
1. The Rabb. (The Creator, cherisher, maintainer of all)
2. The Rehman. ( The merciful for all living bodies)
 
 You have no share in attribute The Raheem and The Maalik. So you are missing a lot of good things.
 
 Please do not go astray because there are grades in Paradise. There are grades here in this world too. You have no cause to complain about the grades.
 
 As there are efforts, grades of good efforts so there are grades of rewards. As there are grades of crimes so there are grades of punishments. I do not know in which world you are living ! You seem to have your own desire as your leader as your God. So you want some kind of laws of your own. I assure you that your case is described in the Quran as one of the highly misled persons who makes his own desire as his guide (God). I cannot find the reference for that.

Keep up your efforts and design your own religion. if you can. When you have doen it then please let us know what you have made (produced).



Edited by minuteman - 15 September 2008 at 5:12am
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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2008 at 10:02am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Well, that at least is an answer, though a rather foolish one in my opinion.  What kind of schizophrenic God would send good people to hell and make them suffer for an arbitrary time, and then transfer them to heaven?  What kind of elitist God would maintain a class system in heaven, with a hierarchy of stages and unequal rewards?  That's exactly the kind of stuff that creates resentment and strife here on earth.

So punishing someone for a bad-deed, and forgiving them after they have done thier time is 'schizophrenia'? Talk about a foolish answer.
Isnt that what your courts do? A person, no matter how 'good' and model a citizen, will pay for doing a crime. After they have paid off thier debt to society, and done thier time, they are pardoned, and released. An evil criminial, with a horrendous crime, is likely to suffer all his life . . .(life imprisonment) . . . So your courts are schizophrenic?
 
Thats the difference b/w Islam and other religions, particularly Christiniaty, just the label of belief is not going to get Muslims into paradise. . .they are told to watch out, and conduct themselves conciousley. And not fool themselves with thier own piety.  You can be a 5-time daily prayer, but if you murder somone, you have to pay for it. And if a person gets away with it in this life, Allah will deal with him later. . . thats the beauty of it. There is justice for all . . . Just bcz that person was otherwise a practising muslim, doenst absolve him of his crime. . . he has to pay for it, either in his life - or in the hereafter.
 
As for an 'elitist' class system! You will get what you earn. You have this life to cash in as many points and upgrade yourself as much as you can. Muslims KNOW beforehand about what they need to do to get into that 'class' , if they choose not to, or prefer a worldly short-term pleasure, then unfortunately they didnt make a wise decision. How is that elitist? God is not going to grant status in heaven on the basis of money, power, class, race or blood ties. There is no such thing as the 'chosen-one' in Islam, you have to earn the status. . . and you can.
 
If a person despite knowing what he should be doing, and what he can possibly earn, prefers NOT to earn the rewards, and instead focus on the worldly . . . then they dont deserve an 'equal' status with those that work hard on earth to be good ppl. Simple as that.
 
 
 

Then what use is the Quran?  2:62 says that someone like my grandmother will "have her reward" in the afterlife.  3:85 says someone like her will be "one of the losers". 

 
Huh? The Quran's use is not to foretell whether or not ur Grandma is in heaven or hell. It tells you the ways and means to get to heaven, and warns you of the things that can take you to hell. Simple.
 
You do your part, and leave the rest to Allah. Rest assured Allah is going to deal with you in the best, and most Just of ways.
 
Let me elaborate a bit by saying, that Allah will judge everyone very justly, if a person has never had knowledge of, or exposure of Islam - Allah will deal with them accordingly. For example, there were ppl following Abrahamic faiths pre-Quran, who had no knowledge of 'Islam' as it is today, the Companions asked the Prophet this, and he said that thier deeds will be judged accordingly, and the 'good' ppl will go to heaven. There are such ppl today as well, living in places with no knowledge of Islam. For those ppl, verse 2:62 applies. And Allah will not let thier good deeds go to waste.
 
However, 'rejection' of Islam, and the One True God is a different matter. When a person, despite bieng exposed to the Oneness of God and the nature of Islam , rejects it . . .  Vserse 3:85 applies. Hence the verses are talking about 2 different sets of ppl . . .not the same person like your Grandmother. Thus, there is no contradiction in the above verses like you state.
 
Allah alone knows the heart of your Grandmother, her faith, her knowledge, her intentions and her exposure to the truth. And He will deal with her accordingly. It is grossly unfair of a human, who does not know the above aspects of a deceased person, to comment on thier fate. Which is why we Muslims have been told to desist from making such predictions and assumptions about the deceased.
 
 
 
Minuteman apparently has convinced himself that there is no contradiction betwen those two statements, that one can be a "loser" in heaven and/or be "rewarded" in hell.  What do you say?
 
I agree with MM on the first part, that there is no contradiction in the above verses, like I explained above. About the second part, I honestly did not understand wht MM is trying to say, once I do, I shall give you my opinion.
 
Like it or not, such are the limitations of bieng mortal. Any human post-prophetic times, who who claims knowledge about the future/fate is loony.

It's interesting that anyone after Muhammad is automatically labeled "loony", but Muhammad himself is believed without question.
 
Yes, interesting but true. The same goes for all the Prophets before Muhammad as well. We have already had a discussion on the merits of Muhammad as a person, and why it was and is to this day, so easy for billions of Muslims to believe in his word and finality as a Prophet. Faith aside, he was an excellent human bieng with no vested interests, except the good of his people. . . a fact that nonmuslims agree with, and is a historical fact.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2008 at 6:03pm

Originally posted by Chrysalis

So punishing someone for a bad-deed, and forgiving them after they have done thier time is 'schizophrenia'? Talk about a foolish answer.

Forgiving them after they've done their time is an empty gesture.  True forgiveness would happen before they were punished.  True forgiveness would not require them to do time at all.

Isnt that what your courts do? A person, no matter how 'good' and model a citizen, will pay for doing a crime. After they have paid off thier debt to society, and done thier time, they are pardoned, and released.

Our prison system is run by our government's "Corrections Division", the theory being that we hope to correct the criminal's behaviour so that he will return to society as a law-abiding citizen.  (Ha!  That's the theory, anyway.)

The heaven/hell thing, by contrast, is supposed to be a final judgement.  There can be no pretense of correcting behaviour, no chance to return to society and no opportunity to make amends for misdeeds.  After you're dead, you've either earned your heavenly reward or not, and a short stay in hell will not change anything.  If you're deserving of heaven afterward, you were deserving of it before.

Huh? The Quran's use is not to foretell whether or not ur Grandma is in heaven or hell. It tells you the ways and means to get to heaven, and warns you of the things that can take you to hell. Simple.

Yeah, simple.  So why can't I get a straight answer?  Does believing in the divinity of Christ take you to hell, or not?

Yes, interesting but true. The same goes for all the Prophets before Muhammad as well. We have already had a discussion on the merits of Muhammad as a person, and why it was and is to this day, so easy for billions of Muslims to believe in his word and finality as a Prophet. Faith aside, he was an excellent human bieng with no vested interests, except the good of his people. . . a fact that nonmuslims agree with, and is a historical fact.

I didn't pursue that discussion because I didn't want to offend anyone, but rest assured, there were plenty of Muhammad's contemporaries who would have vehemently disagreed with your "historical fact".

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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