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Islam for non-Muslims
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2008 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by minuteman

 Ron, you will be reading and I will be waiting for your reply to my some earlier post please.  mm
I am not sure what further reply you would like.  My last response to you was 2008 August 20 at 11:57am.
 
But really, we do not disagree on anything substantial regarding abrogation.  As I understand it, there is only a small disagreement over terminology -- whether the word "abrogation" can be applied to the verses of the Quran.  But whether or not the word applies, I understand that you (and others) do not believe that there are any contradictions, and that is the main thing.
 
I will have more to say about the apparent contradiction that believer has raised when I have time.  Briefly, it seems to me that Christians by definition believe in the divinity of Christ, which means that it must be "a religion other than Islam" and therefore unacceptable to Allah according to 3:85.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2008 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by rami

Ron you dont even know if that is one of the verses which "our" scholars say abrogates anything. are we now going to claim every contradiction in a persons mind is an abrogation, or rather, a lack of knowledge on the part of the individual.
Whether or not it is an example of abrogation, it certainly looks like a contradiction to me.  I am interested in what others have to say about it.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2008 at 1:19am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

then this is a different issue and should be discussed in another thread.
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2008 at 12:00pm
What was first? the tuth or the lie?
which needed to be invented? the truth against the lie? or the lie against the truth?
 
GOD always was so I would say truth was first.
 
It is always the lie that must be invented.  The truth is.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 25 August 2008 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by believer

What was first? the tuth or the lie?
which needed to be invented? the truth against the lie? or the lie against the truth?
 
GOD always was so I would say truth was first.
 
It is always the lie that must be invented.  The truth is.
 
That is right, also truth reveals itself to the seeker, while a lie is imposed upon or is used to cover or distort the truth. And as the old saying goes, one lie leads to many lies, as one need more lies to cover one.
Hasan 
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote halfalife Replybullet Posted: 26 August 2008 at 7:25am

Something to visualize and to ponder on is the fact that the prophets and messengers of The Almighty were all men who called people to the faith of peace with The Lord and with the striving for this, peace with many of His creation (except those who choose to be hostile), the people simply either accepted or rejected the faith. After the prophet or messenger were gone, others grabbed some chairs and set themselves up as councils, usually with the aproval and even support of the government (which usually was headed by a king or tribal leader) and  wrote volumes of books and claimed no one can understand "the religion" -what in reality is a simpel faith which can be understood by even the person who has been endowed with the least IQ by The Creator-,  except if they adhere to their taught way, and if a person does not settle for blind obedience to their words and has questions or doubts  he can go and study their volumes of books under their guidance, and when the new student completely adheres to their doctrines and methodology they declare him a scholar, give him a paper stating his scholarship and send him somewhere to do the same as is done to him to others, this all can only happen ofcourse if they see the questioner as fit for their indoctrination, in other words he must be liked by them, otherwise they just put a label on him which makes him an outcast or even label him a herretic if his claims become too threatening.... Institutionalized religion has not been the way of the prophets, nor of the last prophet Muhammad who was illiterate...it is really kind of ironic that the arab prophet was an illiterate man explaining the (simpel) faith and calling to it with such success and that now we have scholars of "islam", who are supposed to be the inherritors of the prophet (in knowledge of the faith) have desks and hundreds, even thousands of books all claimed essential to fully understand the religion...ironic.

Ofcourse this holds also for all other "religions" that got instutionalized.


Edited by halfalife - 26 August 2008 at 7:35am
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 26 August 2008 at 7:36pm
 
 The Quran is more than an Ocean. A wonder of Oceans. The wonders of the Quran have not all been explored by the scholars. And no one will ever be able to exhaust the wonders and secrets of the Quran.
 
 There were scholars who did well what they could do honestly. There will be new scholars and the new knowledge will be available from the Quran all the time. It is said in the Quran that if any one tries hard to seek in the way of Allah, then Allah shows him the ways and guides him to His path. See below:
 
 [29:69] And as for those who strive to meet US - We will, surely, guide them in Our ways. And, verily, Allah is with those who do good
 
 It is also a verse of the Quran that if all the trees became the pen and the Ocean became the ink and seven more Oceans were added to that ink, the wonders and knowledge of the Quran were written with the pens, the ink will be exhausted but the truth of the Quran will not all be written. See below:
 
 
[18:109] Say, 'If every ocean become ink for the words of my Lord, surely, the ocean would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even though We brought the like thereof as further help.'
[18:110] Say, I am but a man like yourselves; but it is revealed to me that your God is One God. So let him who hopes to meet his Lord, do good deeds, and let him join no one in the worship of his Lord.
 
 
  Every day, the unseen, unknown (Ghaib) is converting into the known things. New knowledge is being revealed. We have to try and be patient and seek knowledge with truth.  mm


Edited by minuteman - 26 August 2008 at 7:46pm
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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halfalife
 
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Quote halfalife Replybullet Posted: 27 August 2008 at 5:30am
Originally posted by minuteman

 
 The Quran is more than an Ocean. A wonder of Oceans. The wonders of the Quran have not all been explored by the scholars. And no one will ever be able to exhaust the wonders and secrets of the Quran.
 
 There were scholars who did well what they could do honestly. There will be new scholars and the new knowledge will be available from the Quran all the time. It is said in the Quran that if any one tries hard to seek in the way of Allah, then Allah shows him the ways and guides him to His path. See below:
 
 [29:69] And as for those who strive to meet US - We will, surely, guide them in Our ways. And, verily, Allah is with those who do good
 
 It is also a verse of the Quran that if all the trees became the pen and the Ocean became the ink and seven more Oceans were added to that ink, the wonders and knowledge of the Quran were written with the pens, the ink will be exhausted but the truth of the Quran will not all be written. See below:
 
 
[18:109] Say, 'If every ocean become ink for the words of my Lord, surely, the ocean would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even though We brought the like thereof as further help.'
[18:110] Say, I am but a man like yourselves; but it is revealed to me that your God is One God. So let him who hopes to meet his Lord, do good deeds, and let him join no one in the worship of his Lord.
 
 
  Every day, the unseen, unknown (Ghaib) is converting into the known things. New knowledge is being revealed. We have to try and be patient and seek knowledge with truth.  mm
 yeah, it holds an evolution in the increasement in knowledge and in further broadening the way of Allah (the way of increasement in righteousness and true justice [sabeel Allah] ), eventhough it is a fact that there are always some who try to hinder (others) from the way of Allah way because they profit in one way or another from injustice and ignorance.


Edited by halfalife - 27 August 2008 at 5:40am
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