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Islam for non-Muslims
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believer
 
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2008 at 1:40pm

Which of these 2 verses is better?

002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
 
003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2008 at 9:45pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Originally posted by Ron Webb

This is really unfair, rami.  It is possible to disagree without being disrespectful.  In my opinion minuteman is one of the most respectful participants in these discussions.

in terms of manners i agree with you completely i haven't sensed any hostility in his words ever, i think he has a good heart, but his judgment i don't agree with.

From an islamic perspective he lacks even the basic adab [etiquette/manners/mindset/humility/respect...its a word describing/refering to these qualities and much more] in phrasing his statements correctly. remeber we are on islamic forum discussing muslim scholars so these are the standards that islam and allah expects, religious values [espetially islamic ones] are expected from a muslim.


Of course it is, just as you are sitting in judgement when you judge them to be correct or trustworthy or beyond question or whatever.

Im sorry i wasnt being clear this is a different kind of judgment not permitted in islam, he wasnt simply judging there words and wondering if he should personnaly follow them [which is fine] he was doing much more, adding his own narrative to the events based on little more than guessing.

These scholars lived 1300 years ago and the first thing islam teaches is that one is not allowed to assume the intentions of any person and based on that asumption judge them or there actions. The prophet [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] specifically spoke against people who assume to know what is in peoples hearts in fact if i remember correctly Allah in the Quran also spoke against such things which are seen as a norm in mordern society or any society basically which doesnt look down upon gossip, there are exapmles of allah damning people to hell when this is act is taken to extremes so its not simply a matter of civility but moral judgment.

im not simply looking at the fact he disagrees with them [which is the judgment you are reffering to] he is judging the acceptability of there actions itself, there is more to his words which you do not percieve.


Edited by rami - 20 August 2008 at 9:49pm
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2008 at 6:22am
I am looking forward to seeing a response to believer's question:
Originally posted by believer

Which of these 2 verses is better?
002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 
... 
003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
...
It certainly looks like a contradiction to me.  How can they be reconciled?  And if it is a case of abrogation in the original sense that I understood it (i.e., to resolve a contradiction), which verse came later?
 
(I may not be able to respond for the next few days, but I will be watching any discussion with interest.)
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Saladin Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2008 at 8:42am
 There's no contradiction. Your understanding is wrong. We still believe in the Torah and the Evangel, except that which has been corrupted and the Quran is the criterion. Whether they are called christians, jews or sabians, whoever believes in the one and only God and works righteousness is a muslim (one who submits to Allah) and their religion was only Islam. No verse in the Quran is nullified by another.
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2008 at 9:08am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I am looking forward to seeing a response to believer's question:
Originally posted by believer

Which of these 2 verses is better?
002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 
... 
003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
...
It certainly looks like a contradiction to me.  How can they be reconciled?  And if it is a case of abrogation in the original sense that I understood it (i.e., to resolve a contradiction), which verse came later?
 
(I may not be able to respond for the next few days, but I will be watching any discussion with interest.)
 
  There is no contradiction and no abrogation. verse 2:62 is telling every one to be good and peaceful. That is Islam. Even if one is a Jew or christian or a person of other faiths, if he/she believes in Allah and hereafter and he/she does good deeds then he/she has nothing to fear for the future and no sorrow for anything of the past. Remember that Muslims are included in all these conditions.
 
 What else could any one ask from the Muslims religion! That is exactly Islam, to have any religion but be peaceful and not to create disturbance in the land.
 
 The verse 3:85 is also telling about the peacefulness (Islam). Allah will not accept any other religion, other than Islam which means to be completely peaceful, honest, balanced without prejudice and hatred. That is the religion of Islam to be good to oneself and good to others, as described in verse 2:62.
 
 Ron, you will be reading and I will be waiting for your reply to my some earlier post please.  mm


Edited by minuteman - 23 August 2008 at 9:14am
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Quote halfalife Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2008 at 10:03am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I am looking forward to seeing a response to believer's question:
Originally posted by believer

Which of these 2 verses is better?
002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 
... 
003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
...
It certainly looks like a contradiction to me.  How can they be reconciled?  And if it is a case of abrogation in the original sense that I understood it (i.e., to resolve a contradiction), which verse came later?
 
(I may not be able to respond for the next few days, but I will be watching any discussion with interest.)
 
 
 
 
 
First of all the word "islam" is an arabic word that holds a meaning in the arabic language, which i might add seems to be disregarded by even arabic speaking people otherwise they would not translate whole verses into english but not translate the word "islam" while at it...so the use of the word "islam" in english is basically nothing more then the use of a label, in that it is not an english word, thus is devoid of meaning.
To understand the word "islam" and the faith, we must understand it's connection to the word "salam", and as you all probebly know this word means "peace", we must also look at the purpose of the monotheistic faiths in general and the goal of a person of sincere faith, namely to seek the pleasure (and with that eternal and everlasting peace) with The Supreme Being whom we name Allah. This means that whomever seeks another way/faith then "striving for" the pleasure (and with that the peace) of "Allah", from such a person his/her faith will not be accepted from him/her.
 
as is translated by Yusuf ali:  
003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
 
There are people who adhere to a faith because they find some benefit by adhering to that specific faith, the most common benefit is not to be an outcast from a social group or even a society and being accepted as part of a specific community,...but to The Almighty no religion is accepted except the way of seeking peace with Him above all others through adhering to the faith , faith is also ofcourse obeying His laws and commands, basically doing what pleases Him and keeping away from that which displeases Him.
 
002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 
 
So submission to The Merciful (to His Will) for the purpose of gaining His pleasure/eternal peace with Him is the sincere religion, and since He is The Truth (Al Haqq) and to Him our destination is, nothing can remain (forever) in existence except the truth.
 
 
 


Edited by halfalife - 23 August 2008 at 11:49am
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Quote halfalife Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2008 at 11:51am
Originally posted by believer

Which of these 2 verses is better?

002.062
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
 
003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
 
Some questions for you:
 
What was first? the tuth or the lie?
which needed to be invented? the truth against the lie? or the lie against the truth?
 
 
 
 
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2008 at 8:37pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Ron you dont even know if that is one of the verses which "our" scholars say abrogates anything. are we now going to claim every contradiction in a persons mind is an abrogation, or rather, a lack of knowledge on the part of the individual.

if every time a christian thought the Quran was contradicting it self [in a particular passage] is evidence of abrogation then they may as well claim there is no contradiction in the Quran at all since it all cancels out....i think you'll agree that's circular reasoning Wink

just to repeat the matter again no person on this forum is educated enough [and i do mean has the nesseary IQ to understand the arguments] to discuss the science of naskh, it is a very technical issue that requires a lot of research.


Edited by rami - 23 August 2008 at 8:42pm
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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