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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2008 at 8:11pm
 
 I will not present the post of rami here. I only want to tell all friends that scholars did well in their time. They were god fearing and capable. But they were not infallible. Where they did many good works, there may have been some mistakes too. Abu Hanifah, a great Imam of Fiqah, is respected by all. The intention is not to attack him.
 
 The wonders of the Quran did not end with Imam Abu Hanifah. We read the Quran for what purpose? If we are not to understand anything ourself then we should only read the works of Imam Abu Hanifah.
 
 Ron is again reading things in the wrong direction. When it is told that there is no abrogated verse in the Quran then Ron should believe that and not try to re-interpret the nature of abrogation.
 
 Halfalife has again done wonders. The presentation of the verses is very good and the rest of the writing of Halfalife is also examplary. I will soon comment on those verses of the Quran and show that there is no abrogation at all. But I need the abrogated verse along with the verse which is abrogating  and only one (pair) verses at a time. Let us see.
 
 We have to understand the meaning of Islam and we have to accommodate the people of the whole world. Not to keep the salvation (deliverance) to ourselves only, as some of the muslims are teaching nowadays.
 
 I may point out here just one thing of the present day muslim religious leaders. As I heard, they believe that any one who has not  recited the Kalimah is a Kaafir. I do not want to open a new debate. But I don't believe what is being said that all non-Kalimah fellows are Kaafirs.


Edited by minuteman - 19 August 2008 at 8:15pm
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2008 at 8:44pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

thank you chrysalis, yes that is what i meant.

You misunderstand Brother, if you think that analysing what the Imams did, and considering them fallible, automatically means that one is disrespecting them or not acknowledging their contribution.


if you are reffering to minutemans post then no i have not misunderstood he clearly disrespected them. 

ill refrain from exagerating anything,

There was no need for the scholars to wander into supposed fields.


this is sitting in judgment of there actions,

They thought if Allah has said Himself that He does not abrogate any verse but he brings a better one in its place. So they thought that Allah must have abrogated some verses. So they started looking for the abrogated verses in the Quran.


here he assumes to know what a sahabi [ibn umar] and the rest of Islams mujtahid imams all thought and goes on to assume what the basis of there actions are all without actually bothering to learn the science they left behind.

Which ever verse of the Quran they could not understand or reconcile,


here he assumes to know what they understood and did not understand.

There was no proof for that from the Quran.


Here he makes a blind statment about the usul they used along with the principles of tafsir which he more than likely has never learned so one can only conclude it must be above his level of understanding and knowledge.

There was no list in the Quran of the abrogated verses.


no one made the claim there was but it is a fact that sayidinah Ali compiled a Quran based on the order the verses where revealed, of which we have a partial copy [or the infomation is refrenced in various works i am not clear on that, either way the information exists] still surviving to this day.

There was no list in Hadith from the words of the prophet s.a.w.s.


i could easily ask, has he read all the ahadith there is in existance to be able to make such an absolute claim.

So why they took upon themselves the duty of abrogating or cancelling any verses of the Quran??


accuses them of inventing abrogation in which is the acusation of kufr [yes i know he didnt intend this] in its implications.

ergo this statment,

  What is more, those people built a complete science on the subject of abrogation.


who specifically are "those" people.

They invented rules for the abrogation and classified some verses as abrogated only for the actions. Some verses were to be recited but not to be active any more. Some other were abrogated for the meaning only. There was a complete science on this subject. I cannot recall all the rules they invented. There was nothing about that (those rules) in the Quran and Sunnah. It was only in their minds. They felt that it should be like that.


Besides the baseless acusations he desplays a complete and utter ignorance of the usul and sciences this ummah has relied upon for 1400 years [the very same science which the modern west is built upon eg the scientific method] and by holisticlly brushing it all aside places himself above every scholar, wali, sahhabi that has said anything on Islamic law.
 

Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2008 at 8:49pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

I must be psychic or something because i seem to have replied to your motivations even before you stated them...who knows

Originally posted by halfalife

 
And yes muslims like christians and jews are human too, with the same kind of human inclinations, desires and evils (deceptions)...in the light of us all being human let us not exclude our specific group from the possibility of being wrong, infact let us not think in terms of groups at all, but reason as individuals who have been given the basic ability to reason which is independent from the schematics and doctrines of others who put themselves forward as to be followed.........The prophet told that the muslims will do exactly the same things as those before (jews and christians)  and indeed, we can not escape being human afterall...we may differ in culture, tradition and temperment, but we can not escape the binding human factors like for instance the possibility of being terribly wrong.
 
Let me be clear about something, the evil lays in the striving of some to gain power.... and setting up a system to maintain control by the subjection of others through lies, distortions of religious texts and in some cases even the manipulation of historical events.
The jews and christians have done it before......But to no avail.
 



""you are superimposing your christian history onto the Islamic one and assuming events all developed along the same lines. Our scholars did not commit the same atrocities as yours in the name of religion in fact you will be hard pressed finding similar atrocities committed by any scholar since they never held power throughout Muslim history but Dynastic rulers similar to the Roman empire in its decline did.

We never developed anything like your church or pope and they never pretended to forgive the sins of man on behalf of God or sell tickets to heaven......i could go on and on about the distinction between both civilisations and why you cant jump the gun and assume simply becouse things sound the same, the bottom line is Muslims behave/react differently to Christians [or Hindu's, Buddhists....etc] in the same situation becouse they have been conditioned to perceive things differently just like other religions or societies condition the individual to think along there lines of there teachings [which is why i have always made statements like western or new muslim].""

Its a matter of history my friend, it has all been said and done and we didnt do what you assume.


Edited by rami - 19 August 2008 at 8:51pm
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2008 at 6:53am

Originally posted by rami

if you are reffering to minutemans post then no i have not misunderstood he clearly disrespected them.

This is really unfair, rami.  It is possible to disagree without being disrespectful.  In my opinion minuteman is one of the most respectful participants in these discussions.

this is sitting in judgment of there actions

Of course it is, just as you are sitting in judgement when you judge them to be correct or trustworthy or beyond question or whatever.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2008 at 7:15am
Originally posted by minuteman

Ron is again reading things in the wrong direction. When it is told that there is no abrogated verse in the Quran then Ron should believe that and not try to re-interpret the nature of abrogation.
Where is it told that there is no abrogating verse in the Quran?  It seems to me that al-Bakara 2:106 suggests that abrogation does happen, or at least can happen -- "Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof."
 
I think the problem may be in translation. We are all in agreement that there can be no contradictions in the Quran; but as long as abrogation is understood to mean an extension or elaboration of a previous verse rather than a contradiction, then I see no difficulty.


Edited by Ron Webb - 20 August 2008 at 7:17am
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2008 at 7:36am
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

thank you chrysalis, yes that is what i meant.

You misunderstand Brother, if you think that analysing what the Imams did, and considering them fallible, automatically means that one is disrespecting them or not acknowledging their contribution.

 rami: if you are reffering to minutemans post then no i have not misunderstood he clearly disrespected them. 

ill refrain from exagerating anything,
 Why would I disrespect any scholar? But this business could be a cooked one about abrogation. I know the Shias have their own Hadith and Sunnis have their own. Think of how much different are the beliefs? It is such a long time ago that things were written and nobody knows who may have interefered with the texts. I respect all scholars. But I will always use my intellect too, Insha Allah.
 
 Instead of accusing me, why don't you please post any abrogated verse here now. Then we will come to know how much you have learned from those scholars. May be i missed the knowledge they spread in the world and you may have grabbed it. Then please come up with a few abrogated verses. And no use discussing the meaning of abrogation. Thanks.
There was no need for the scholars to wander into supposed fields.


   rami: this is sitting in judgment of there actions,

 

 Of course there is no judgement from me on the scholars. But you tell me if there was any Hadith (a saying of the prophet) in this regard that "Allah has abrogated some verses in the Quran by some other verses. So be careful about them"? Is there any such thing? If it is not there then tell me what was the need of assuming that some verses were abrogated? Why they took up the challenge. You please tell  me the reason.

They thought if Allah has said Himself that He does not abrogate any verse but he brings a better one in its place. So they thought that Allah must have abrogated some verses. So they started looking for the abrogated verses in the Quran.


   rami:here he assumes to know what a sahabi [ibn umar] and the rest of Islams mujtahid imams all thought and goes on to assume what the basis of there actions are all without actually bothering to learn the science they left behind.
  I am not a scholar. But I may have read more scholarly books on the subject. You tell me why those people started discussing and looking for the abrogated verses. Then some of them found about 500 such verses. The others had less number.
 
 Until some other scholars understood the problems and solved the situation and reduced the number of abrogated verses to five only in the time of Shah Waliuulah Dehlavi.
 
 Will you say that those who did that good work were also misguided and disrespectful to their senior scholars?.  No. Not at all. I have already told you that the wonders and miracles of the Quran are unlimited. The Quranic knowledge had not ascended on the old old scholars only. There were some left for the later people too.

Which ever verse of the Quran they could not understand or reconcile,


here he assumes to know what they understood and did not understand.

There was no proof for that from the Quran.


Here he makes a blind statment about the usul they used along with the principles of tafsir which he more than likely has never learned so one can only conclude it must be above his level of understanding and knowledge.

There was no list in the Quran of the abrogated verses.


no one made the claim there was but it is a fact that sayidinah Ali compiled a Quran based on the order the verses where revealed, of which we have a partial copy [or the infomation is refrenced in various works i am not clear on that, either way the information exists] still surviving to this day.

There was no list in Hadith from the words of the prophet s.a.w.s.


i could easily ask, has he read all the ahadith there is in existance to be able to make such an absolute claim.

So why they took upon themselves the duty of abrogating or cancelling any verses of the Quran??


accuses them of inventing abrogation in which is the acusation of kufr [yes i know he didnt intend this] in its implications.

ergo this statment,


  What is more, those people built a complete science on the subject of abrogation.


who specifically are "those" people.

They invented rules for the abrogation and classified some verses as abrogated only for the actions. Some verses were to be recited but not to be active any more. Some other were abrogated for the meaning only. There was a complete science on this subject. I cannot recall all the rules they invented. There was nothing about that (those rules) in the Quran and Sunnah. It was only in their minds. They felt that it should be like that.


Besides the baseless acusations he desplays a complete and utter ignorance of the usul and sciences this ummah has relied upon for 1400 years [the very same science which the modern west is built upon eg the scientific method] and by holisticlly brushing it all aside places himself above every scholar, wali, sahhabi that has said anything on Islamic law.
 

 
 I am not writing any more. I shall wait for your response and would like that you please present the case of some abrogated verse of the Quran and present it with some surety from yourself too in support of it. Thanks.  mm
 


Edited by minuteman - 20 August 2008 at 8:25am
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2008 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by minuteman

Ron is again reading things in the wrong direction. When it is told that there is no abrogated verse in the Quran then Ron should believe that and not try to re-interpret the nature of abrogation.
Where is it told that there is no abrogating verse in the Quran?  It seems to me that al-Bakara 2:106 suggests that abrogation does happen, or at least can happen -- "Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof."
 
I think the problem may be in translation. We are all in agreement that there can be no contradictions in the Quran; but as long as abrogation is understood to mean an extension or elaboration of a previous verse rather than a contradiction, then I see no difficulty.
 
  You have presented the translation of the verse. It says "none of our revelation do we abrogate"  That means no verse is abrogated.
 
 It could also mean "None of the verses we abrogate (obliterate)..."  and further "And make it to be forgotten" that means you will not find it nor remember it. So why go looking for one in the Quran?
 
" But that we bring another one the better than it or equal to it." Ron also remember that the lines in the bible OT and NT are also verses (revealed earlier). Could they be abrogated or made to be forgotten and new verses better than those or equal to those revealed in the Quran? Could it be like that?
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2008 at 9:57am
"None of the verses we abrogate but [except] that we bring another one better than it".  In other words, Allah never abrogates a verse without providing an equal or better one.  (And by "better" I am assuming more comprehensive, more complete, not that the earlier one is wrong or inferior.)
 
Yes, it could refer to earlier revelations, but I see no reason to assume that.  Surely unless otherwise specfied, "our revelation" would mean the current revelation, i.e. the Quran, wouldn't it?
 
I think we have seen some examples of abrogated verses already.  The verse that forbids coming to prayer intoxicated is a good one.  A later verse forbids intoxication at any time, which is "better" (more comprehensive) than the earlier one, but it does not contradict it.
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