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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2008 at 7:11pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Originally posted by halfalife

The quran does not contradict itself, so the reality is there is no need whatsoever for the abrogations.........they chose a belief of conflict in which verses have to be abrogated through the doctrine of men as to validate their beliefs and in some cases their hostility and even violence against others.


you are superimposing your christian history onto the Islamic one and assuming events all developed along the same lines. Our scholars did not commit the same atrocities as yours in the name of religion in fact you will be hard pressed finding similar atrocities committed by any scholar since they never held power throughout Muslim history but Dynastic rulers similar to the Roman empire in its decline did.

We never developed anything like your church or pope and they never pretended to forgive the sins of man on behalf of God or sell tickets to heaven......i could go on and on about the distinction between both civilisations and why you cant jump the gun and assume simply becouse things sound the same, the bottom line is Muslims behave/react differently to Christians [or Hindu's, Buddhists....etc] in the same situation becouse they have been conditioned to perceive things differently just like other religions or societies condition the individual to think along there lines of there teachings [which is why i have always made statements like western or new muslim].


Edited by rami - 18 August 2008 at 9:40pm
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2008 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by halfalife

The quran does not contradict itself, so the reality is there is no need whatsoever for the abrogations. The quran does seem contradicting when interperted through the supposed sunnah or tradition which sometimes result in a contradiction between the behaviour of muslims and the text of the quran, so therefore some choose the "science" of abrogation to deal with verses that go against their traditionally held beliefs and thus their behaviour.
 
What it comes down to basically is that the muslims, like the christians and jews before them have chosen to raise the word of men over the words of Allah, instead of adhering to a belief without contradictions of text they chose a belief of conflict in which verses have to be abrogated through the doctrine of men as to validate their beliefs and in some cases their hostility and even violence against others.
 
 I agree to what is said above 100 %. In fact it has described the real Islamic point of view in a very good manner. Nothing could be said in a better way. I am thankful to the opinion of halfalife.
 
 There was no need for the scholars to wander into supposed fields. They thought if Allah has said Himself that He does not abrogate any verse but he brings a better one in its place. So they thought that Allah must have abrogated some verses. So they started looking for the abrogated verses in the Quran.
 
 Which ever verse of the Quran they could not understand or reconcile, they put it down as the abrogated verse. There was no proof for that from the Quran. There was no list in the Quran of the abrogated verses. There was no list in Hadith from the words of the prophet s.a.w.s. So why they took upon themselves the duty of abrogating or cancelling any verses of the Quran??
 
 What is more, those people built a complete science on the subject of abrogation.

They invented rules for the abrogation and classified some verses as abrogated only for the actions. Some verses were to be recited but not to be active any more. Some other were abrogated for the meaning only. There was a complete science on this subject. I cannot recall all the rules they invented. There was nothing about that (those rules) in the Quran and Sunnah. It was only in their minds. They felt that it should be like that.

 ( More later, Insha Allah)

 


Edited by minuteman - 18 August 2008 at 8:36pm
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2008 at 9:37pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Br its better that you admit that you have not understood the subject clearly rather than to criticise the likes of Ibn Umar, Imam Abu Hanifah and Imam shafii.

It is also ignorant to question these individuals and ask why they did something, critisise them for it and not even have looked at what it is they did or said on the subject or the evidance they produced. if any person can do a text search of bukhari and come up with a clear hadith for its existance what of the scholars who had access to volumes of works and lived not 150 years after hijrah.

until i posted my original reply i doubt you even knew there was such an Islamic science so please can we be reasonable in our assumptions and conclusions.
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote halfalife Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2008 at 3:19am
Let us take a look at 3 supposed abrogated verses;
 
2:62 VERILY, those who became safe in faith (amanoo) as well as those who attained guidance (through the Jewish faith)( hadoo), and the Christians, and the Sabians    -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear is upon them, nor do they grief.
 
2:256 THERE SHALL BE no coercion in the faith.  Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the opressor and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.
 
5:69 for, verily, those who have attained to faith as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Sabians,  and the Christians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - no fear is upon them, nor do they grief.
 
These verses are claimed to abrogate the above verses:
 
"3:85:
For, if one goes in search of a way other than self-surrender (with the goal of attaining eternal peace with Allah, in arabic islaam.), it will never be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the lost.
 
3:86 How would God bestow His guidance upon people who have resolved to deny the truth after having attained to faith, and having borne witness that this Apostle is true, and [after] all evidence of the truth has come unto them?  For, God does not guide such evildoing folk.
 
and;
 
 9:73 O PROPHET! Strive hard against the deniers of the truth and the hypocrites, and be adamant with them.  And [if they do not repent,] their goal shall be hell -and how vile a journey's end!
 
Like in this case again there is no need for abrogation whatsoever if we realise that hostility is only directed against the agressors (those who try to force others to leave their faith by opressing them and even killing them if they refuse to do so. (as was the case with the prophet and those with him). The prophet and the faithful did not get attacked because they were talking of attaining power or subjecting the world to their faith, they were attacked because they called to truths, things that went against the desires of the profiteers of falsehood (idolatry was and still is big money), so like before with the Pharao and all the other unjust tyrants throughout history, the situation came about where the unjust could not keep themselves from attacking the callers to  righteousness because their position of power came under threat by the numbers of people leaving the system of opression(idolatry) for the system of righteousness ....
And since the idolators wished to force the faithful to leave their faith and force their religion on them, it was justifiable for the faithful to turn it the other way around and impose their faith on them instead, read:
 
22:60 That (is so). And if one has retaliated to no greater extent than the "injury" he received, and is again set upon inordinately, Allah will help him: for Allah is One that blots out (sins) and forgives (again and again).
 
The issue was that alot of people wished to join the faith but were affraid of the persecution imposed by the leadership of the idolators (and their religious esteblishment).
 
110 : 1. when the Help of Allah comes and the Victory,

2. and thou dost see the people enter Allah.s Religion in crowds,

3. Celebrate the praises of thy Lord, and pray for His Forgiveness: For He is Oft-Returning (in Grace and Mercy).

 
Allah is The (Ultimate) Righteous and The (ultimate) Inherritor and to Him is the destination, this means that  -injustice comes to an end everytime again, either by the doers of injustice leaving it and becoming just(er) or by them being destroyed along with it-...History testifies of this fact.
 
 And yes muslims like christians and jews are human too, with the same kind of human inclinations, desires and evils (deceptions)...in the light of us all being human let us not exclude our specific group from the possibility of being wrong, infact let us not think in terms of groups at all, but reason as individuals who have been given the basic ability to reason which is independent from the schematics and doctrines of others who put themselves forward as to be followed.........The prophet told that the muslims will do exactly the same things as those before (jews and christians)  and indeed, we can not escape being human afterall...we may differ in culture, tradition and temperment, but we can not escape the binding human factors like for instance the possibility of being terribly wrong.
 
Let me be clear about something, the evil lays in the striving of some to gain power.... and setting up a system to maintain control by the subjection of others through lies, distortions of religious texts and in some cases even the manipulation of historical events.
The jews and christians have done it before......But to no avail.
 


Edited by halfalife - 19 August 2008 at 6:07am
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2008 at 6:29am
Originally posted by rami



. if any person can do a text search of bukhari and come up with a clear hadith for its existance what of the scholars who had access to volumes of works and lived not 150 years after hijrah.

 
You misunderstand Brother, if you think that analysing what the Imams did, and considering them fallible, autmatically means that one is disrespecting them or not acknowledging thier contribution.
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2008 at 7:58am

I'm not sure what disagreement remains here.  It seems like everyone agrees that there are no contradictions in the Quran, and I am satisfied with the explanation of abrogation -- essentially that the abrogated verse is not wrong but merely incomplete, just as the Quran itself was incomplete at that time.

I am surprised that rami imples that the Quran contains "flaws in logic", but since he (she?) has chosen not to elaborate I will not  push it here either.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2008 at 8:23am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I'm not sure what disagreement remains here.  It seems like everyone agrees that there are no contradictions in the Quran, and I am satisfied with the explanation of abrogation -- essentially that the abrogated verse is not wrong but merely incomplete, just as the Quran itself was incomplete at that time.

I am surprised that rami imples that the Quran contains "flaws in logic", but since he (she?) has chosen not to elaborate I will not  push it here either.

 
From what I understand, Rami was referring to the 'flaws in logic' of Dr.Zakir's explanation of abrogation. Not the Quran itself.
 
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2008 at 9:06am
Embarrassed I guess I misread it.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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