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Islam for non-Muslims
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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2008 at 11:46pm

I don't understand how that can be.  I know that the Quran was not revealed all at once and not in the same order that it appears now (which seems odd to me too -- why would anyone change the order of the Suras?); but I had always assumed that at least each sura would be revealed intact, all at once and with the verses in the proper order.
 
The order of the Surahs is divinely inspired, True, it is not in the exact same chronological order it was revealed in, but the current arrangement is still according to how Prophet said it should be.
 
As to why the order of the Surahs was changed, there was surely wisdom behind it, and arguing as to why it is the way it is, really doesnt matter. Thats because the words, verses and the message is still the same, in the exact way it was revealed.
 
Also, some surahs were revealed in one sitting . . . while other, lengthier ones, with details and commandments that required a gradual transition (such as Surah Baqarah) were revealed over a span of time, not in one sitting. As for the verses, I dont think (anybody with more info on this, pl elaborate) anybody changed the sequence of the verses. Just the surahs. . . but of this I'm not entirely sure, bcz I couldnt find any source commenting on the sequence of verses.
 
 
 
Why did the Quran need so much editing? Confused
 
Surprisingly, there wasnt any 'editing' involved in the Qur'an - which is why, even the alleged abrogative verses have not been left out (edited) but have been included exactly in the way they were revealed. Rearranging the order hardly constitutes editing. Editing implies there were verses included, and left out - when this was not the case. According to Sahih Bukhari, Usman the 4rth Caliph and companion of the Prophet, when compiling the Quran said that he would never shift anything of the Quran from its orginal position (i.e. how Prophet Muhammad said it should be)
 
Here is an excerpt I came across on a website, regarding the chronological order of the Qur'an:
 

2.   Order and sequence of Qur’an divinely inspired

The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.

Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.

It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions.

"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2008 at 12:16am
Bi simillahi rahmani raheem

Originally posted by Chrysalis

[quote] 
This is what I found in response:


That isnt the issue sister i wasn't quoting it to prove ibn umar was right or wrong about abrogation [insha allah you know the standing of ibn umar in this community] i was quoting it to establish that the sahabah themselfs discussed this issue and it wasnt invented later on.

the only thing you have established is that there was ikhtilaf [diference of opinion about which verses abrogated which] among the sahbah themselfs regarding this issue so its just beyond comprahension how anyone can now say the issue doesnt exist it never existed and its all made up.

[Pickthal 2:106]" Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?"

this is a conditional statment sister, its a statment of logic. "nothing of revelation do we abrogate or cause to be forgotton" [it is conditional to this rule] "BUT we bring in place one better or the like thereof."

which literally meanse we dont abrogate anything untill we replace it with something similar or better, it doesnt say we dont abrogate anything as you seem to think. Its also an argument for why the laws of the Quran are eternal since they are the last revelation from allah which he will not abrogate with anything else. which is exactly what the Ulumah have said that some commandments within the Quran in there original context [not as they apply in latter times] are temporary in nature.


Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2008 at 12:40am
Originally posted by rami




the only thing you have established is that there was ikhtilaf [diference of opinion about which verses abrogated which] among the sahbah themselfs regarding this issue so its just beyond comprahension how anyone can now say the issue doesnt exist it never existed and its all made up.
 
I never insisted that this issue never existed . . . apparently, it very obviousley does . . . which is why the Sahabah discussed it, or Ron brought it up.
 
If I have realised something, it is that our 'ikhtilaf' may very well perhaps be on how we interpret the 'abrogation' in reference to teh Quran. Infact, one also has to take into consideration how non-muslims view the issue of abrogation. To you or to me, it does not mean that the Quran is nauzubillah imperfect, but when a nonmuslim asks (and I'm not pointing at Ron here, just bieng general) , thier misconception is that this implies that the Quran has loopholes, and due to the abrogation phenomenon, many verses can be ignored or considered nullified. (and no, I would never customize Islam to make it 'pleasing' to a nonmuslim, or to myself)
 
If by abrogation, you or whoever says means 'cancellation' or 'nullify' then I disagree . . . because I agree with the view that the verses still stand today, and apply - just in a different scenario. For e.g. when Allah asks the muslims not to approach prayer when drunk , to me, if we make a venn diagram of the verses, this part still applies today i.e. Do not approach prayers when drunk - its still included in the 'set' of 'drinking is haraam'. It cannot be said that the verse implies its okay to drink, it doesnt. ( I know this verse was revealed before the others)
 
[Pickthal 2:106]" Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?"

Depends again on the interpretation. Scholars say that the words 'ayaat' (which some interpret as meaning quranic ayaat) may very well refer to the revelation of the previous scriptures. Hence this would very well apply to the previous scriptures and not the Quranic verses themselves. Hence the 'better' that Allah brought in place of the abrogated scriptures, is the Quran.




Edited by Chrysalis - 17 August 2008 at 12:50am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2008 at 12:45am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Originally posted by Ron Webb

The previous verse??  I totally agree, it makes no sense whatsoever for Allah to reveal a verse and then change His mind, literally in the next breath! (assuming Allah breathes Smile)
 
I await other examples with interest...


that isn't what occurred, a verse is essentially a command, advice or ruling from Allah regarding a specific issue that was occurring at the time. Sometimes one verse would be revealed at others two or three or more or even an entire chapter its all different. the prophet towards the end of his life sat down with Gabriel and organised all the verses into the order we have them in today, he used to also recite the quran in its entirety with Gabriel once a year. So the order we have now is itself divinely sanctioned but it is not the order of revelation.

For example the beginning of one surah [as we have now] would be revealed, then some years would pass and in that time other revelations would come down belonging to other chapters in various orders, then the remainder of that initial chapter would be revealed. They came down in response to and as events where unfolding not as a book which had no relevance to the life's of the Arabs at the time....do you see the subtle difference?

If "Islam for non-Muslins" is restricted to "qualified persons", maybe I should have posted my question in a different section.  I am very interested to hear as many personal views as possible, in addition to scholarly opinions.


You misunderstood what i was referring to, people are welcome to post there own personnel opinions regarding the matter that isnt what i was objecting to, they have no right to say something isnt a part of islam or doesnt exist when Islams four schools of thought [the only authorities in Islam] have developed an entire scinece of the issue. so basically they can speak for themselves but not for "Islam" and both chrysalis and minuteman have overstepped there bounds in this matter.

You asked if this issue existed or was a fabrication well "officially" it does exist in all of islams legal schools and there is an entire science based around this issue.

It is recorded in historical works that Ali [ra] the prophets cousin compiled a Quran in which he arranged the verses in the order of there revelation, this work was used by the earlier scholars in there various works in the science of abrogation but the Quran in its entirety has not survived to this day, we partially have that order but since it became less relied upon over the years [for various reasons such as reliance on the works based of this Quran as apposed to it specifically] it was lost, i dont know the exact reason it may have been that the libraries that contained copies where themselves destroyed in various wars.

 
I also didn't realize this was going to be a contentious question.  Abrogation is certainly used by anti-Muslims as the basis for all sorts of attacks against Islam, but I thought there would be a straightforward answer here.  I hope my question does not create hostility.
 
I dont argue the individual but the point and any emotion you may perceive is entirely directed at that not the individual. The anti muslim arguments are typically hypocritical in nature since they can easily be turned against the bible and its abrogation of the Torah [eg the day of sabath] or similarly the torah against the book revealed to Abraham [pbuh] and we can go back in time to all past revelations which abrogate what came before them.

It would help me to understand if those who believe in abrogation would provide some specific examples.  What verses have been abrogated, and which "better" verses replace them?


if you want to get into particulars this i can not help you with since i am not qualified in the science of abrogation and any opinion you see should be understood as the opinion of the individuals posting them which they are free to do.

Check this site out and click on Quran,

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/



Edited by rami - 17 August 2008 at 1:04am
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2008 at 1:02am
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem


If "Islam for non-Muslins" is restricted to "qualified persons", maybe I should have posted my question in a different section.  I am very interested to hear as many personal views as possible, in addition to scholarly opinions.


You misunderstood what i was referring to, people are welcome to post there own personnel opinions regarding the matter that isnt what i was objecting to, they have no right to say something isnt a part of islam or doesnt exist when Islams four schools of thought [the only authorities in Islam] have developed an entire scinece of the issue. so basically they can speak for themselves but not for "Islam" and both chrysalis and minuteman have overstepped there bounds in this matter.

 
You agreed that there is 'ikhtilaf' amongst scholars as to the nature of quranic abrogations, which means basically they have an ikhtilaf with any school of thought that talks about abrogations. Pray tell, how is agreeing with the opposite side regarding this 'ikhtilaf' overstepping boundaries? I did not make-up the hadith of Ibn Abbas, nor did I come up with the 'interpretation' of the verse in surah baqarah (regarding abrogation).
 
As for the schools of thought, ahadith of the Sahabah or the Prophet regarding the issue of abrogation would be considered more reliable compared to any later discussion of the issue. Which is why I tried to go to the source, i.e. ahadith. If you have any regarding this, kindly do post and enlighten us on the issue - if you wish to (meaning I dont 'expect' you to do so, just because I ask, because like you rightly mentioned earlier, I should be reading up in my own good time)
 


Edited by Chrysalis - 17 August 2008 at 1:03am
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2008 at 1:13am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

can you quote the legal fatwah of any scholar you follow which says abrogation itself does not exist?

there is a difference between whether or not abrogation existed and which verses abrogated which.

Originally posted by Chrysalis


As for the schools of thought, ahadith of the Sahabah or the Prophet regarding the issue of abrogation would be considered more reliable compared to any later discussion of the issue. Which is why I tried to go to the source, i.e. ahadith. If you have any regarding this, kindly do post and enlighten us on the issue - if you wish to (meaning I dont 'expect' you to do so, just because I ask, because like you rightly mentioned earlier, I should be reading up in my own good time)


There opinions as indaviduals [had they been alive today] are certainly worth more but what you are gong to i.e the ahadith is not there opinions it is pieces of evidence which need to be investigated and you can not quote a single hadith to refute any of the madhhabs.

This is typical of what i was saying beffore about the dumbing down of islam and every indavidual thinking they can deduce there own fatwas from ahadith and how they think IT is more reliable.


Edited by rami - 17 August 2008 at 1:14am
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2008 at 1:19am

Came across a website, that basically says in a nutshell, what I was trying to say. Hence my views regarding abrogation are similar to what this particular scholar says. Thats because I didnt wish to overstep my boundaries, so I'll just post it - and (try to) leave it at that (until need be).

 
6.    THE THEORY OF ABROGATION

Question:

Muslims believe in the theory of abrogation, i.e. they believe that certain earlier verses of the Qur’an were abrogated by verses revealed later. Does this imply that God made a mistake and later on corrected it?

Answer:

1.    Two different interpretations

The Glorious Qur’an says in the following verse:

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?"
[Al-Qur’an 2:106]

A reference to this is also made in chapter 16 verse 101 of Surah Nahl. The Arabic word mentioned is ayat which means ‘signs’ or ‘verses’ and which can also mean ‘revelations’. This verse of the Qur’an can be interpreted in two different ways:

a.    The revelations that are abrogated are those revelations that were revealed before the Qur’an, for example the Torah, the Zaboor and the Injeel.

Here Allah (swt) says that He does not cause the previous revelations to be forgotten but He substitutes them with something better or similar, indicating that the Torah, the Zaboor and the Injeel were substituted by the Qur’an.

b.  If we consider that the Arabic word ayat in the above verse refers to the verses of the Qur’an, and not previous revelations, then it indicates that none of the verses of the Qur’an are abrogated by Allah but substituted with something better or similar. This means that certain verses of the Qur’an, that were revealed earlier were substituted by verses that were revealed later. I agree with both the interpretations.

Many Muslims and non-Muslims misunderstand the second interpretation to mean that some of the earlier verses of the Qur’an were abrogated and no longer hold true for us today, as they have been replaced by the later verses of the Qur’an or the abrogating verses. This group of people even wrongly believe that these verses contradict each other.

Let us analyze a few such examples.

2.    Produce a recital like the Qur’an / 10 Surahs / 1 Surah:

Some pagan Arabs alleged that the Qur’an was forged by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Allah (swt) challenges these Arabs in the following verse of Surah Al-Isra:

"Say: If the whole of Mankind and Jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur’an they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support."
[Al-Qur’an 17:88]

Later the challenge was made easy in the following verse of Surah Al-Hud:

"Or they may say, "He forged it." Say, "Bring ye then ten Surahs forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsover ye can, other than Allah, if ye speak the truth!’."
[Al-Qur’an 11:13]

It was made easier in the following verse of Surah Yunus:

"Or do they say, "He forged it"? Say: "Bring then a Surah like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can, besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!’."
[Al-Qur’an 10:38]

Finally in Surah Al-Baqarah, Allah (swt) further simplified the challenge:

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah if your (doubts) are true.

But if ye cannot – and of a surety ye cannot – then fear the Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones – which is prepared for those who reject faith".
[Al-Qur’an 2:23-24]

Thus Allah (swt) made the challenges progressively easier. The progressively revealed verses of the Qur’an first challenged the pagans to produce a book like the Qur’an, then challenged them to produce ten Surahs (chapters) like those in the Qur’an, then one Surah and finally it challenges them to produce one Surah somewhat similar (mim mislihi) to the Qur’anic Surahs. This does not mean that the later verses that were revealed i.e. of Surah Baqarah chapter 2 verses 23 and 24 contradict the earlier three verses. Contradiction implies mentioning two things that cannot be possible simultaneously, or cannot take place simultaneously.

The earlier verses of the Qur’an i.e. the abrogated verses are still the word of God and the information contained in it is true to this day. For instance the challenge to produce a recital like the Qur’an stands to this day. Similarly the challenge to produce ten Surahs and one Surah exactly like the Qur’an also holds true and the last challenge of producing one surah somewhat similar to the Qur’an also holds true. It does not contradict the earlier challenges, but this is the easiest of all the challenges posed by the Qur’an. If the last challenge cannot be fulfilled, the question of anyone fulfilling the other three more difficult challenges does not arise.

Suppose I speak about a person that he is so dumb, that he would not be able to pass the 10th standard in school. Later I say that he would not be able to pass the 5th standard, and further say that he would not be able to pass even the 1st standard. Finally I say that he is so dull that he would not even be able to pass K.G. i.e. kindergarten. One has to pass kindergarten before one can be admitted to school. What I am stating is that the person is so dull as to be unable to pass even kindergarten. My four statements do not contradict each other, but my last statement i.e. the person would not be able to pass the kindergarten is sufficient to indicate the intelligence of that person. If a person cannot even pass kindergarten, the question of him passing the first standard or 5th or 10th, does not arise.

3.    Gradual prohibition of intoxicants

Another example of such verses is that related to gradual prohibition of intoxicants. The first revelation of the Qur’an to deal with intoxicants was the following verse from Surah Baqarah:

"They ask thee concerning wine and gambling say: ‘In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit’."
[Al-Qur’an 2:219]

The next verse to be revealed regarding intoxicants is the following verse from Surah Nisa:

"O ye who believe! approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say" [Al-Qur’an 4:43]

The last verse to be revealed regarding intoxicants was the following verse from Surah Al-Maidah:

"O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan’s handiwork; eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper."
[Al-Qur’an 5:90]

The Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years. Many reforms that were brought about in the society were gradual. This was to facilitate the adoption of new laws by the people. An abrupt change in society always leads to rebellion and anarchy.

The prohibition of intoxicants was revealed in three stages. The first revelation only mentioned that in the intoxicants there is great sin and some profit but the sin is greater than the profit. The next revelation prohibited praying in an intoxicated state, indicating that one should not consume intoxicants during the day, since a Muslim has to pray five times a day. This verse does state that when one is not praying at night one is allowed to consume intoxicants. It means one may have or one may not have. The Qur’an does not comment on it. If this verse had mentioned that one is allowed to have intoxicants while not praying then there would have been a contradiction. Allah (swt) chose words appropriately. Finally the total prohibition of intoxicants at all times was revealed in Surah Maidah chapter 5 verse 90.

This clearly indicates that the three verses do not contradict each other. Had they been contradicting, it would not have been possible to follow all the three verses simultaneously. Since a Muslim is expected to follow each and every verse of the Qur’an, only by following the last verse i.e. of Surah Maidah (5:90), he simultaneously agrees and follows the previous two verses.

Suppose I say that I do not live in Los Angeles. Later I say that I do not live in California. Finally I say, I do not live in the United States of America. This does not imply that these three statements contradict each other. Each statement gives more information than the previous statement. The third statement includes the information contained in the first two statements. Thus, only by saying that I do not live in the United States of America, it is obvious, that I also do not live in California nor New York. Similarly since consuming alcohol is totally prohibited, it is obvious that praying in an intoxicated state is also prohibited and the information that in intoxicants is "great sin and some profit for men; but the sin is greater than profit" also holds true.

4.     Qur’an does not contain any contradictions

The theory of abrogation does not imply that there is a contradiction in the Qur’an, since it is possible to follow all the verses of the Qur’an at the same time.

If there is a contradiction in the Qur’an, then it cannot be the word of Allah (swt).

"Do they not consider the Qur’an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy (contradictions)."

[Al-Qur’an 4:82]

 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2008 at 1:26am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Originally posted by Chrysalis

Came across a website, that basically says in a nutshell, what I was trying to say. Hence my views regarding abrogation are similar to what this particular scholar says. Thats because I didnt wish to overstep my boundaries, so I'll just post it - and (try to) leave it at that (until need be).



Without implying anything about the character of Dr Zakir Naik he is not a qualified scholar sister he is a Doctor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakir_Naik
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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